Ideal male body - Page 4

Clockwatcher · 04-25-2009, 06:00 PM

I used to think all i wanted was mass. Just wanted to get bigger and bigger and dint give a shit about body fat.

Then one day i hit the cross trainer after a session and felt great.

3 months later i'm still doing full weights sessions but am also stacking 40min (about 500 cals worth) of cardio at the end of every session.

I've lost about 1/2 stone but kept all my size, just trimming the bf down. By reducing it you look leaner anyway and the definition is much better, just makes me realise how fat i was.

Also makes my shlong look better, and that's always a plus.

Pegasus · 04-26-2009, 07:17 AM

Power to you CL. You set a good example.

Clockwatcher · 04-26-2009, 10:44 AM

hehe, i think i left something out there though...

The concept of doing cardio after a weights session is to attempt to create an energy requirement when your blood's glycogen levels are low and force the body to use fat reserves for that energy.

However you need to tread carefully here, as if you go too intensive, by doing too high an intensity or use HIIT training etc. your likely to drive your bod into a catabolic state and allow it to destroy good quality muscle to provide the necessary cals.

The key post workout or first thing in the morning with cardio is slow - steady state cardo. Ensure your heart rate is kept relatively low and you'll strip away that body fat with no depletion of muscle tissue.

Ensure you use additional support such as extra BCAAs when attempting to cut, this will help protect muscle tissue.

I'll keep you updated on my progress.

Pegasus · 04-26-2009, 12:45 PM

Yes I have heard this theory before. There is some science backing the training in a depeleted state eg on waking in the morning. Of course catabolism is an issue for some. How to get around this, is subject to much conjecture.

Clockwatcher · 04-26-2009, 04:03 PM

As with anything bodybuilding related, there is obvious contention with theories and research. First hand though this is working out for me, but then increasing cardio and decreasing cals in will always help you lose fat, it's just questionable how much muscle is also lost.

Pegasus · 04-27-2009, 07:28 AM

Yes, it is always hard to lose fat without losing muscle.

Big Al · 04-27-2009, 04:32 PM

You can lose fat and maintain muscle if you do it slowly. I've found that doing low impact cardio helps you retain more muscle than doing intense cardio. Some people find it possible to lose fat and gain muscle. This would require keeping yourself in constant positive nitrogen balance (consuming protein every few hours or so) and not overtraining. Supplements such as caffeine and ephedra help too.

lifted · 04-27-2009, 05:20 PM

So like would 60% of your max heart rate be better post weightlifting than say 70-75-80-85%?

Big Al · 04-27-2009, 05:27 PM

Well, there are a lot of health benefits to be had from intense cardio, so you don't want to eliminate it totally. One approach I used when cutting was I would sprint for a couple of minutes then ease into the low impact work. A post-weight workout cardio session for me went like this-

5 minutes warm up
1 minute to peak effort
2 minutes at peak effort
2 minutes to go from peak to 60-65%
10-30 minutes at 60-65%

This gave me some of the benefits of intense cardio without overdoing it. It also spiked my metabolism and helped me burn more calories.

lifted · 04-27-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Al

Well, there are a lot of health benefits to be had from intense cardio, so you don't want to eliminate it totally. One approach I used when cutting was I would sprint for a couple of minutes then ease into the low impact work. A post-weight workout cardio session for me went like this-

5 minutes warm up
1 minute to peak effort
2 minutes at peak effort
2 minutes to go from peak to 60-65%
10-30 minutes at 60-65%

This gave me some of the benefits of intense cardio without overdoing it. It also spiked my metabolism and helped me burn more calories.

Sounds good, i think i will try that.

Pegasus · 04-28-2009, 07:47 AM

Let me know how you go guys.
For now I will keep my weights and cardio seperate.

BigHose · 04-29-2009, 01:18 AM

If you want to try a good fat burning diet, try a cyclic ketogenic diet like Bodyopus. I've done it last year and lost inches from my waist without losing more than a few pounds after 3 weeks. It's very regimented with no room for cheating, but it is worth it.

Big Al · 04-29-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHose

If you want to try a good fat burning diet, try a cyclic ketogenic diet like Bodyopus. I've done it last year and lost inches from my waist without losing more than a few pounds after 3 weeks. It's very regimented with no room for cheating, but it is worth it.

Underground Body Opus is a great book :) That diet is a killer though. I tried it a few times and it works, but for part of the cycle before you carb up you feel like crap.

Unless you're trying to get ripped, perhaps something less extreme like the Isocaloric Diet would do.

lifted · 04-29-2009, 03:17 AM

I do low carb less tha 100 grams per day. Why, because i am a diabetic. If you feel groggy, grumpy or tired after eating a high starch or sugary meal you should go to the doctor to have your blood sugar checked. Letheragy after a high carn meal can mean you are pre diabetic or glucose intoloerant or worse yet diabetic.

BigHose · 04-29-2009, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Al

Underground Body Opus is a great book :) That diet is a killer though. I tried it a few times and it works, but for part of the cycle before you carb up you feel like crap.

Unless you're trying to get ripped, perhaps something less extreme like the Isocaloric Diet would do.

I've done Isocaloric back in the late 90's. I think it is an excellent everyday eating plan. In fact most of my 6+ meals/day stem around equal macronutrients. I owe this lifestyle of eating to the Isocaloric plan.

Pegasus · 04-29-2009, 07:56 AM

As far as doing cardio without muscle loss, I have found swimming far better than running type activites.

Clockwatcher · 04-29-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

You can lose fat and maintain muscle if you do it slowly. I've found that doing low impact cardio helps you retain more muscle than doing intense cardio. Some people find it possible to lose fat and gain muscle. This would require keeping yourself in constant positive nitrogen balance (consuming protein every few hours or so) and not overtraining. Supplements such as caffeine and ephedra help too.
__________________

That's exactly what I do, and said, Big Al (well minus the nitrogen requirements bit as im not well versed on that area of nutrition.)

AFAIK almost everything fat loss and muscle growth related comes down to blood insulin, and absolutely, protein supplementation throughout the day helps no end, as does knowing when and what sorts of carbs to using throughout the day. Macro nutrition is boring but crucial in protecting yourself from catobolism while losing fat.

I'm tall too so i only do slow, low impact cardio to protect my joints.

As for caffeine and ephedra, I go and off using these, I'm not particularly stim sensitive so i should use them more, my only issue is i find eph makes me fidgety and stops me wanting to do PE, which i obviously avoid.

Big Al · 04-29-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clockwatcher

That's exactly what I do, and said, Big Al (well minus the nitrogen requirements bit as im not well versed on that area of nutrition.)

AFAIK almost everything fat loss and muscle growth related comes down to blood insulin, and absolutely, protein supplementation throughout the day helps no end, as does knowing when and what sorts of carbs to using throughout the day. Macro nutrition is boring but crucial in protecting yourself from catobolism while losing fat.

I'm tall too so i only do slow, low impact cardio to protect my joints.

As for caffeine and ephedra, I go and off using these, I'm not particularly stim sensitive so i should use them more, my only issue is i find eph makes me fidgety and stops me wanting to do PE, which i obviously avoid.

Positive nitrogen balance essentially means having enough protein available so that your body doesn't start cannibalizing itself. This isn't that important to keep track of if you're not dieting strictly since carbs have a protien sparing effect, but if you're on a low carb diet, consuming some protein every 2-3 hours is a good idea.

Important- if you're going to be on a high protein diet, ensure that you're free of any kidney problems; and make sure that you drink a gallon or more of pure fresh water daily.

I would take the ECA right before an intense workout. If you're feeling amped up too long afterwards, you're probably taking too much.

Pegasus · 04-30-2009, 08:04 AM

Had to limit NaNo vapor, as it was hard to sleep.
Al you must remember, some years ago 15 perhaps? Bodybuilders, were doing lots of low intensity cardio after training. Something about "fat burning zone" or some such, then it fell out of favour again.
Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned.
Low carb diets , have gone in and out of popularity even more so.

Big Al · 04-30-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Had to limit NaNo vapor, as it was hard to sleep.
Al you must remember, some years ago 15 perhaps? Bodybuilders, were doing lots of low intensity cardio after training. Something about "fat burning zone" or some such, then it fell out of favour again.
Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned.
Low carb diets , have gone in and out of popularity even more so.

I remember :) I used that philosophy myself and it worked great for burning fat while maintaining muscle.

Remember- your body becomes its function. If you train like a hard core endurance athlete, you're eventually going to look like a hard core endurance athlete. If you train like a bodybuilder, you're eventually going to look like a bodybuilder (at least an amateur, drug free one

).

Pegasus · 05-01-2009, 08:15 AM

Well I don't agree Al. Drugs are so endemic in bodubuilding, that if you are training drug free, you should look elsewhere for training advice, imo.
Note, that just because a bodybuilder says he is drug free, does not mean he is. The most convincing speech, I ever heard about how he was drug free, was by Lee Priest. This was shortly before he tested positive for roids at a Bodybuilding comp which is a very good trick.

Big Al · 05-01-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Well I don't agree Al. Drugs are so endemic in bodubuilding, that if you are training drug free, you should look elsewhere for training advice, imo.
Note, that just because a bodybuilder says he is drug free, does not mean he is. The most convincing speech, I ever heard about how he was drug free, was by Lee Priest. This was shortly before he tested positive for roids at a Bodybuilding comp which is a very good trick.

You're mistakenly assuming that I define "bodybuilder" as the typical Mr. Olympia hopeful. When I say to train like a bodybuilder, I don't mean to adopt the regimens from the pros in the magazines- I mean partaking in a regimen that produces maximum muscle size and strength through proper stimulus, recuperation, and nutrition. There is a definite and clear difference, and a drug free trainee has to pay particular attention to a lot of different factors as theres a much higher margin of error for them.

When I lived in Miami I trained along side some serious professional bodybuilding aspirants. Some of the things they did routine-wise didn't make any sense. I saw some pretty crazy things- from men lifting tiny weights for very high reps and sets in a effort to "pump" the muscle to guys that trained brutally in excess of four hours a day, six days a week (not counting cardio)! With the quantity of drugs that some of these gentlemen were taking, they would have grown from doing just about anything.

That being said, there still exist places where drug free bodybuilding is praised and even rewarded- organizations like NANBF - North America Natural Bodybuilding Federation. they don't attract the atention that the large federations do, but it still gives some hope for the sport.

Pegasus · 05-02-2009, 04:26 AM

We have drug free comps here in Aussie. I have met many drug free competitors, they usually tell me how all the other drug free competitors, are on drugs.
I met a drug free powerlifter once ,I know this because I was there when the other powerlifters were trying to talk him into using and he kept saying no. His name was "Big" John Askov and he had 18" arms, so it can be done.
As you say, many men want to increase muscle size and it can not be done drug free in the same fashion. That being the case, training info for size and especially strength increase, are best garnered elsewhere.

long2Blong · 05-02-2009, 03:11 PM

What do you guys class as drugs? Creatine is a naturally occuring food source, however, taken in the correct quantities along with protein and other muscle focussed foods can produce quality gains pretty damn fast.
Drugs imho are anything man made that evolution has not yet catered for. I have a friend who takes steroids and he's honestly not that much bigger than me, his biggest fastest gains were seen when he took a multi supplement containing substances such as creatine and tribulus. He appeared to be an inch bigger all over after just a week! As an observer I find roids highly overrated, especially with their apparent side effects.

Big Al · 05-02-2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by long2Blong

What do you guys class as drugs? Creatine is a naturally occuring food source, however, taken in the correct quantities along with protein and other muscle focussed foods can produce quality gains pretty damn fast.
Drugs imho are anything man made that evolution has not yet catered for. I have a friend who takes steroids and he's honestly not that much bigger than me, his biggest fastest gains were seen when he took a multi supplement containing substances such as creatine and tribulus. He appeared to be an inch bigger all over after just a week! As an observer I find roids highly overrated, especially with their apparent side effects.

When I refer to "drugs" in the various weightlifting sports I'm referring to anabolic steroids. I would also put HGH into this category- especially since the abuse of this drug in professional BB circles has created some of the most unsymmetrical, grotesque physiques imaginable (JMHO).

I started working out in the late 80's and this was about the time when the larger BBers went from looking classical to freaky. This was also the time when pros and aspirants en masse started really abusing the stuff. If any of you guys were reading the popular literature from those times (late 80's to early 90's), you probably noticed the shift from lifting for health and strength and shunning drug use, to lifting for purely superficial reasons and tolerating or even promoting drug use.

I had a lot of friends using those kinds of drugs. Some of them got quite huge, but ALL of them told me of their negative side effects. Many were visible (premature balding, acne, bloated physique, personality changes), while other were not (testicular shrinkage, liver problems, hormonal imbalances after cessation). Almost 20 years later, hardly any of them lift seriously anymore- it was all for naught

Pegasus · 05-03-2009, 12:49 AM

There are so many drugs, insulin is a common one. Many like insulin and testostorone are natural in the body, but not the amounts.
Creatine is not a drug and I do not class trib as one either.
There is no doubt that drugs they work. However if your friend bought them on the street, there is no telling what was in it.

lifted · 05-03-2009, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

There are so many drugs, insulin is a common one. Many like insulin and testostorone are natural in the body, but not the amounts.
Creatine is not a drug and I do not class trib as one either.
There is no doubt that drugs they work. However if your friend bought them on the street, there is no telling what was in it.

Insulin makes you fat and if you don't need it it can kill you. why dudes use insulin to pump them selves up is beyond me. The only thing you can possibly get from it is blubber.

I would classify green tea as a natural anobolic aide because it increases tetosterone. Also DHEA and trib can be helpful as well. Oh yes fish oil is good to.

W.M.P. · 05-03-2009, 03:40 PM

Wow. What a solid thread this has turned out to be. Great exchange of tips, experiences and insight, fellas. I guess I got too busy keeping some knuckleheaded newbs in line back @ PE Gym. Anyways, I've been making some adjustments to my fitness routine and in many ways, going back to what had ALWAYS worked for me, which was calisthenics. I've also been carefully working on strengthening and balancing my shoulders, which had been giving me some trouble here and there for quite a while now. I've also been getting back to medium intensity cardio (mostly treadmill for now) in order to loose some fat while also keeping my ticker (and therefore my pecker

) in the best shape possible. For now what I'm doing is calisthenics every other day and running (treadmill, cause the pavement just KILLS my knees and shins) on days in between. I'll also do some low intensity cardio for about 5 to 10mins after my calisthenics just to flush out lactic acid (it makes a huge difference for me in terms of minimizing post-workout soreness) and loosen everything up so that I can have a good stretch before walking out the door.

I agree with Peg in that swimming is THE BEST cardio, even more so when it comes to keeping a skin-busting erection for as long as you need. One of my favorite things I notice when I've been hitting the pool (which I haven't been able to do for a while) is that I can fuck at full force/speed for the longest time while barely (if any) sweating at all and also keeping my heartbeat/breathing as close to baseline as possible. It's just unbelievable what swimming does when it comes to sexual stamina...just plain unbelievable.

I'm still slacking on my diet here and there, but only once a day (either lunch or early dinner); a healthy breakfast has been religion to me for years now, since it will ALWAYS have a very strong effect in terms of how I feel for the rest of the day, so I NEVER fuck around with my breakfast. I'm also quite religious about my EFA intake; I always take my fish oils with at least 3 of my daily meals. Plus I've also been munching on Walnuts and roasted, unsalted Almonds a couple of times a day.

Pegasus · 05-03-2009, 03:52 PM

Good for you WMP. Your routine is obviously geared for health purposes, which is the main thing, Carefull with the nuts they are heart healthy, but high calorie.

lifted · 05-04-2009, 02:20 AM

Hey WMP how about those knuclehead newbs over ar PE gym! Do you think eating them is heart healthy. You want to go over there right now and help me eat one of them? How about ding dong or mastertard....yum! yum!...yum! yum!! Nooobs eat them nooobs.

Hey pegesus are noobs calorie dense??

On a serious note i get my cardio at work but it is more like the sprinting kind. Darting in and out like a chicken with my head cut off.

lifted · 05-04-2009, 02:26 AM

I apologise for the above post i just could not help myself, heeeeeh! ...... Sorry!

Pegasus · 05-04-2009, 03:10 AM

Ah lifted, a fine example of the boofy post. Of course you could not help it. With a name like ding dong, I would think calorie dense and not heart healthy.
The AMA says 5 times per week moderate activity, which is walking(forget the exact speed required) briskly. Many people would get that minimum requirement from work. However I would say to them to keep a close eye on this. Physical work also burns a lot of calories. If your work becomes less physical you have the double whammy of no cardio effect and a pile of calories to get rid of.

W.M.P. · 05-04-2009, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifted

Hey WMP how about those knuclehead newbs over ar PE gym! Do you think eating them is heart healthy. You want to go over there right now and help me eat one of them? How about ding dong or mastertard....yum! yum!...yum! yum!! Nooobs eat them nooobs.

Hey pegesus are noobs calorie dense??.

Oh man...them noobs over there with their lazy attitude are raising my cholesterol by 20 points per second.

Now back to topic

, I did some nice cardio today and definitely had a perfect day in terms of food intake. I'm really looking fwd to leaning out at least to a 100% flat stomach; not too concerned with carving a six pack but definitely flattening my stomach like a solid plank of wood is what I'm gonna do in these next couple of months. I'm also gonna bring my pull-up stamina back to what it was 10yrs ago. Right now I'm stuck at about 6 to 7 reps per set

... but I'm gonna work on doubling that.

Pegasus · 05-04-2009, 03:50 AM

Interesting chins, firstly they are a strength to weight exercise. So smaller guys are often good at them. It is rare to see a heavyweight doing many. Secondly their high neuromuscular content means they repay practice. So if you want to be good at chins multi times per week. On the other hand if you are doing them for development once or twice works well.

lifted · 05-04-2009, 04:22 AM

I could never do chin ups. And im truly convinced WMP that there is not such thing as flat as a board abs. Even a six pack contains contours.