kdub

OK guys this is for the know it all gym types. I consider myself a relatively fit guy 5ft9" and weigh 170 just now. I am really broad shoulder and well built all over especially the legs.

Now here is my dilema, yesterday whilst practicing on my motocross bike I had a career ending injury. I seperated my shoulder and tore most of the ligaments off. As of right now my arm doesn't really move. Sceduled to be fixed real soon.

Now after the op I am looking at 3 months to get the most motion back that I can. Now due to lack of exercise I will obviously lose weight.

Now I don't want to spend the next year trying to build strength and mass back up. So say to gain a good 10-15lbs of size what would be recommended to take as a cycle. I have never taken anything before but now my biking is over I would like to bulk up a bit.

__________________
If you build it, She will come!!!

START 01/AUG/04
FL 3.75"
FG 4.0"
EL 5.8"
BPEL 6.2"
EG 4.5"


GOALS
BPEL 8.5"
EG 5.75"

Gerhardt Willet

Duuuude.....

The absolute LAST thing you want to do with that shoulder is push it with steroids. Steroids mask the inflammation and pain. Tore most of the ligaments off? IF they can get everything put back properly, it'll be quite a while before you can push that shoulder. If ever. Be happy to get the use back.

If you push the shoulder with steroids you will probably destroy whatever you have left to work with, and a second repair will be most difficult if not impossible. I know some pretty big dudes who have had NO injuries, but have ground thier shoulders into dust pushing it to build muscle because the steroids mask the pain and swelling.

Then there's always the fact that the stuff is illegal. The upside of that is last time I was in the joint, they had a great gym facility......

But right now I'm thinking: if you just about tore your arm off yesterday how is it that you're sitting at your computer at 6am today and typing?
Whatever.

bozoballz

Kdub I'm sorry for your loss.

You may never be able to use that arm like you think again. Worse you'll risk further injury as Gerhardt pointed out.

Atleast your pecker still works.

My advice would be to never take steroids. Let your shoulder heal. For like a year or more. Work on cardio.

bozoballz

Sorry for the double post... seems I double clicked. I should check my ladies tits, make sure I'm not seeing 4.

adz88

From my understanding steroids increase the rate of the repair of muscle tissue. Dunno how it affects torn ligaments lol

kdub

I am currently using my left arm badly to type etc. lucky for me the misses is helping me loads. the arm is totaly useless right now and the pain killers are strong. Got the word that its a 3rd degree seperation to the ac joint. if we need to operate we are looking at 3 months recovery to get back to being able to start working out lightly.

The reason for the steroids was to
1. build back the muscle mass that I will lose over the next 6 months.
2. Build a lttle more averall size.

I know that steroids can be addictive but I genuinley only want to do 1 cycle to get the gains etc I can get. I know the shoulder will never be the same but hopefully with a good post op plan hopefully I will be able to lift weight s etc again.

__________________
If you build it, She will come!!!

START 01/AUG/04
FL 3.75"
FG 4.0"
EL 5.8"
BPEL 6.2"
EG 4.5"


GOALS
BPEL 8.5"
EG 5.75"

Gerhardt Willet

kdub....

Ok....here's the deal. 'roids won't help if you're working out lightly. To not waste your time you need to just about max out every cycle. Most muscleheads I know didnt get much to talk about until 2 or 3 cycles on Deca or Winstrol. Then you have the other problems of the 'roids turning to estrogen They ALL do to a certain extent, and causing gynomastia (sp?) and growing a nice set of BOOBS for you. (popular in the joint)
THEN you have testicular SHRINKAGE because they, your nuts, realize that your testosterone is way too high so they atrophy, STOP production.
Down side of that is that they might NOT grow back. Or they might after 6 months or so. who knows.....
Then to get any real results, you have to eat like a friggin HORSE because you have to grow the muscles out of something, yes? And you have to drink water like a fish because of the liver and kidney toxicity so the roids don't kill you.
Then you turn into a fat water retaining bloated Pillsbury Dough Boy looking fellow who has to max out on diuretics to get rid of all that excess water.

THEN, if all that isn't enough to satisfy you.... if you do just one cycle....you'll loose all your gains in a few weeks after you stop taking them.

Do I sound negative?

My suggestion: Do tai-chi, and do it seriously, youd be AMAZED at the workout you can get. Swim....16 lengths of a Olympic size pool 3 times a week. Eat lots of protein and supplement it with whey or soy, this will allow the connective tissue to heal. It NEVER heals as strong, but it's not a lost cause.

JonPop

Kevin, sorry to hear about your injury. Positive? At least you didn't break your fookin neck. Negative? You will have to work with what you have for the rest of your life. I am still dealing with a torn rotator cuff. I can't afford the down time to get it repaired. With the operation that you are facing, look for 6 months down time and another 6 months of re-hab. Sorry to be the barer of gloom, but this is what you have to look forward to. Must be a bitch trying to sleep? Good luck mate. We all are pulling for you.

__________________
I've got a Tiger by the Tail

W.M.P.

I've torn my shoulder in two places. The rear deltoid I tore in a freak accident over 12yrs ago. The physical therapy place I went to was a mediocre practice to say the least. At the time, I didn't know any better so the thing ended up not healing properly; too much scar tissue, which in turn took away a lot of the muscle's flexibility. So about 2yrs ago, I tore the front head of that same shoulder, for no other reason than the imbalance I had from the old injury. The front head ended up not only picking up slack from an unproperly healed rear head, but also was getting pulled back constantly by the tightness of the rear. To say the least, it was very depressing at first, cause without healthy shoulders, YOU CAN'T LIFT, PERIOD. Any upper-body exercise recruits the shoulders. After a week of feeling like shit, I thought "Hmmm...I know what I can do. Cardio!! Dude, I got RIPPED in like a month. I focused on a lean diet, did cardion twice a day and next thing you know, I have the washboard abs I hadn't seen in almost 10yrs! Find yourself a good doctor, good physical therapist and just make the best of the situation. You'll be glad you did.

JonPop

Good advice W.M.P

__________________
I've got a Tiger by the Tail

kdub

thanks for the support guys.

__________________
If you build it, She will come!!!

START 01/AUG/04
FL 3.75"
FG 4.0"
EL 5.8"
BPEL 6.2"
EG 4.5"


GOALS
BPEL 8.5"
EG 5.75"

W.M.P.

A good buddy of mine who juiced for about 2 decades, calls the gains on roids "borrowed muscle", so chew on that for a bit. Also, whether injured or not, you might be able to fool muscles into "growing" with roids, you might also be able to feel as strong as Superman...but you can't fool your joints. As much as roids can do suprahuman things for muscle, when it comes to connective tissue such as the tendons that hold your joints together, roids will do NOTHING for them. So, while your muscles are "growing", your tendons will be trying to catch up with the increasing loads and they will fail miserably at it. Do the math, and you'll see that it doesn't add up, no matter what any fervent juicehead will tell you. With proper nutrition, rest and top-notch treatment, the body's ability to recover is simply astounding. One thing I'll tell you right off the bat, is to DO THE PRECRIBED EXERCISES AND STRETCHES when you start physical therapy. Don't just do them when you go to your weekly appointment for therapy; do them at home as prescribed, no matter how boring, useless or insignificant the moves might seem. One step at a time, you'll be back on the horse sooner than you think.

baybabe

Wait...Doesn't Steroids make your d*ck smaller?

__________________
"A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up" ~Mae West

Gerhardt Willet

IN a word: Yes. All steroids are precursors for testosterone. Like I mentioned before, hypogonadism ( tiny Nads) sets in because body chemistry sees an excess of testosterone.
They shrink to nothing. Then your dick shrinks right after your sex drive.
Sounds like fun.

baybabe

WEEEEEEEEE!

__________________
"A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up" ~Mae West

earlybroncogirl

start with some Glutamine...and if u can get ur hands on "real" HGH...it will help u in with amazing recovery/healing ...do not take what I have said lightly as I am not offering this advice lightly...do ur research

earlybroncogirl

the info I am offering is not to "build" muscle...but aid in "incredible healing properties"...as I know I am gonna get ripped into for even saying what I have said....I have done my "personal research" over a period of no less than 6 years, so I am not speaking on bs I have heard about...and I am also speaking "in moderation"...not abuse

Pegasus

Kdub sorry about your injury. The results you are after can be gained natural, it just takes time. You are young and will heal with a good doctor and physio. I am also sure you can regain any weight loss plus an additional 10lb and yes it might take a year or 2; so what you have the rest of your life.

kdub

Good new from the doc today. We done some tests etc and he reckon 3 months and I can be on a bike full speed. However I am going to take 6 months and build up the shoulder properly.

I have a partial dilocation of the shoulder and a stage 3 seperation of the AC joint. Over the past 12 hours I have done nothing but 10 mins heat/cold and it has worked wonders for the pain. Going to start physio on Monday and will also start a goo stretching routine on top of that.

Cardio wise I have always (12 years) cycled around 150 miles a week and run 12 miles over 2 sessions. On top of that I do 3 weight workouts using 2 body parts per session.

Then I practice on the bike or race upto 3 times a week so general fitness for me is not a problem. Putting size on is. Right now I am carrying around 10-12 lbs in excess weight due to injuries and obviously going to be more.

I would never be able to gain 12lbs of muscle mass in a year without some sort of help. I am not saying I would either but I am curios how it all works.

__________________
If you build it, She will come!!!

START 01/AUG/04
FL 3.75"
FG 4.0"
EL 5.8"
BPEL 6.2"
EG 4.5"


GOALS
BPEL 8.5"
EG 5.75"

JonPop

Great news from your Dr. Kdub. Much better than I expected to hear. Hang in there buddy.

__________________
I've got a Tiger by the Tail

sikdogg

No steroids WILL NOT make your dick smaller. It will also NOT make your dick bigger. However, they will atrophy your testicles but with propper planning that can be prevented. I understand your concern for kdub's health but spewing half truths that you read from media propaganda is silly.

Fact is that steroids will help even if one works out lightly (although it may not be obvious)... that is the reason why it is given to AIDS patients. Steroids work by increasing protein synthesis. This increase in protein synthesis will help to keep muscle.... even in people suffering from muscle wasting diseases like AIDS. I can talk about the science behind this as well as personal experience in bodybuilding. It's not the evil that the media would have you believe.

That said, i don't think that kdub should start cycling steroids. I think that he should just stick to physical therapy to allow the connective tissues to heal and get stronger first. The problem with newbies taking steroids is that strength increases rapidly and sometimes at a faster rate than connective tissues. Since his connective tissues are weak, increasing muscle strength too quickly can put more stress on his connective tissues and put him at further risk of injuries. Once he is 100% or close to it, that is the time to consider steroid use.

baybabe

WOW That is so interesting! Thank you for posting.

__________________
"A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up" ~Mae West

kdub

Thanks for the input dogg. Once I get back upto strength I will reopen the topic and in the meantime I will try and learn as much as possible to make an educated decision myself.

Right now its just curiousity and wanting to know how it works.

__________________
If you build it, She will come!!!

START 01/AUG/04
FL 3.75"
FG 4.0"
EL 5.8"
BPEL 6.2"
EG 4.5"


GOALS
BPEL 8.5"
EG 5.75"

Pegasus

The large amout of cardio is working against strength /size gains, had the same problem myself years ago. You could try cutting down on this while gaining weight and then maintaining , however combining strength and endurance is always a balanceing act.

adz88

Sik I understand that steroids increase the rate in which muscle tissues repairs (protein synthesis) so I was thinking it in fact could have benefits in
PE. From my understanding with girth exercises your send more blood into the penis than it can currently holds and the tissue tears to expand and the gains from from the tissue resetting in the new shape. With steroids maybe more gains or quicker gains could come from this. Don't flame me if I'm wrong please I'm just a curious newbie to PE

Gerhardt Willet

Sik,

You're absolutely right, steroids will definitely NOT make your dick shrink.
But, the lack of testosterone from the raisin-size Nads will certainly have a negative effect on one's ability to "hang stud", yes? And correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that kinda KILL the sex drive? No test, no sex drive.

Ice cold showers don't actually make one's dick shrink, but I usually avoid them when I want to make a good impression.....

And yes, with proper planning it's possible to avoid hypogonadism. We HAVE failed to mention though, that the proper planning involves anti-aromatizing drugs to prevent estrogen production and the chances of "bitch tits" and even lactation. Then one would have to supplement testosterone at the end of the cycle. A rather complicated web to weave?

Please don't assume that I just regurgitate media crap. I've been hauling the irons around for almost 30 years. And I dont think that steroids are evil.
I'm still using them now, but with a script for Depo-Medrol every few months (methylprednisolone) so I can still use my knees and shoulders...after far too many years of pushing it.

Endocrinologists spend their entire careers on this very complicated subject.
Sometimes the "half truth" is a necessary evil to avoid the over-complication
of a simple conversation.

__________________
Good God almighty, we was goin down slow,....... With Precious and Grace everything's all right....
(ZZ Top)

sikdogg

That makes alot of sense and what i used to think also... but personal experience and feedback from others that have done steroid cycles while pe'ing says different. I have been on several steroid/hgh/ifg cycles and i didn't experience any growth gains while on cycle. Friends from other PE boards that have experience with steroid use all say the same thing.

That said, i think there may be some benefit while recovering from workouts as you said but i just haven't seen or experienced it first hand. I think there would be more benefit seen if gains were mostly from the penis' smooth muscle going throhgh the damage and repair process but i speculate that gains come mostly from collagenous tissue expansion.

10

Kdub, I don't know the first thing about steroids or anything else. So, I'll leave my comment as general as possible. I'm sorry to hear about your injury brother and I sincerely wish you a speedy recovery bro, whichever way you choose to go about recovering.

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Got a question or need help? Click here to send 10 a private message.

sikdogg

Yes steroids will make your nads shrink but by simply adding hcg to your cycle, this can be prevented.

The size of one's testes doesn't really have that much effect on the penis unless you're still in puberty.

Testicular shrinkage from steroid use will only effect your sex drive once you stop the steroid... that is until your body begins producing testosterone again. This recovery period can be accelerated by running Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) after your steroid cycle. But while you are on steroids, you won't lose sex drive if you are running test as part of your cycle. In fact, sex drive will go through the roof.

Testosterone should always be the base of any cycle. Anyone who runs a steroid cycle without running testosterone is a fool and deserves feeling like crap. Guys that run deca only cycles or something similar is just asking for problems.

It does mine... i definitely get shrinkage after a cold shower. This is natural and is due to constriction of blood vessels throughout your body when exposed to cold. I think some people will probably experience this effect more than others. I think i get it bad because i'm a grower and not a shower...

I wasn't talking about avoiding hypogonadism... i was talking about avoiding testicular shrinkage while on steroids.

Anti-aromatizing or Aromtase Inhibitor (AI) drugs aren't a necessity. Only to people that have a problem with elevated estrogen (not all guys experience this). I have never had to use AI's in all the times i've cycled. The problem with AI's is that they can drive Estrogen (E2) levels too low which will cause libido problems and/or a increase in Cholesterol.

With the exception of bloating in addition to "bitch tits" or gyno, it is much better to run a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) or otherwise known as an Anti-estrogen (anti-e) to control gyno. These drugs block estrogen at the receptor and don't affect circulating estrogen levels. The breast cancer drug Nolvadex is one such drug. It is probably the most common drug for controlling gyno...

Just because guys have been lifting for a long time and/or use them doesn't mean they know much about them and/or how to use them properly. I've heard alot of conversations at the gym from supposed "experts" that were full of crap. The truth is that the majority of steroid users in gyms learned what they know secondhand from guys that don't know the difference between hgh and hcg.

I don't think they're good or evil... and i personally don't care if one chooses to use them or not. It's all about personal choice.

I am hypogonadal so i have to take depo injections... this worked out well for me because when i want to do a cycle, i just up the dose and stack it with whatever i want (usually tren). I never have to worry about PCT because i never stop injecting. I also use HCG...

Endocrinology is definitely a very complicated subject... maybe you're right.

stranger

Interesting thread, pretty much everything I would say has already been said.
Have the surgery, do the rehab.
All the best, shoulder injuries aren't fun.
And don't rush back into flies like me - all I can say is ouch!!

Pegasus

Kdub you might post in the" personal trainer here to help" thread there are a lot of people offering to help on it. I am sure there would be someone there who could help you reach your goals drug free, -although I am starting to wonder!

kdub

As I said before guys, just curious how these things work. Getting there normally works fine for me. I know how fit I am and what my body is capable of. Years of being a top 1% sportsman in motocross.

I do run a 10k around 32 mins on average. I bench more than my body weight for sets of 8 and can do sets of 20 full body weight dips. So my general fitness is very high.

I am not looking for whats morally right or wrong, just information from people who have experience in using steroids. If I were to use them (which I still don't think I will) I would be using for a 1 time gain. Say an 8 week cycle to gain what I can and thats it over. No more. Reason being is that I don't want to give up the cardio for the next 2 years and gain 20 lbs of fat to build it for that long. If I were to go for it I would gain some weight and hit myself hard for a couple of months in the off season Nov-Feb. Then I would be concentrating on cutting the weight slowly and building the Cardio back up for some local racing next year.

As I said before looking to be around 175-180lbs with my abs showing. right now to get my abs showing well I need to trim down to 160-165lbs.

Cheers guys

__________________
If you build it, She will come!!!

START 01/AUG/04
FL 3.75"
FG 4.0"
EL 5.8"
BPEL 6.2"
EG 4.5"


GOALS
BPEL 8.5"
EG 5.75"

Gerhardt Willet

Endocrinology is definitely a very complicated subject... maybe you're right.[/quote]

We seem to have reached an accord then sir...


Continued luck in your pursuits :-)

__________________
Good God almighty, we was goin down slow,....... With Precious and Grace everything's all right....
(ZZ Top)

kdub

Thanks for the advice guys, looking forward to a slow recovery.

__________________
If you build it, She will come!!!

START 01/AUG/04
FL 3.75"
FG 4.0"
EL 5.8"
BPEL 6.2"
EG 4.5"


GOALS
BPEL 8.5"
EG 5.75"

Pegasus

Hey Kdub how is the recovery going? You must still be in a hard place.
An athlete friend has recently gained 10lb lean in 3 months natural by cutting his cardio, changing his diet training etc. I don't think 2 years or a fat gain are necessary.
You are very fit, if you were an elite wrestler they would say your cardio was fine -but you would need to improve your strength 50%. Course you are not a wrestler but elite wrestlers are drug tested so this can be done and is done.