Pegasus - Page 2

Pegasus · 01-20-2009, 11:44 AM

Lifted UA may be helpfull in your situation.
Going to talk to a friend who has some of your issues.
Your arms seem small relative to other bodyparts, tricep work may help your pressing strength.

Pegasus · 01-20-2009, 11:32 PM

Lifted makes some good points about very high protein diets(over1gram per pound bodyweight). They can cause problems. I recomend caution in regard to their long term use. Carbs seem to have a bad rep just now. They are the bodies prefered fuel source if you are training or working hard. Of course calories should be limited if weight is a problem.

UnderAve · 01-21-2009, 01:21 AM

I agree with the above statement, to the point where people ignore valuable carbs from veges and fruits. Add simple carbs when needed, which is post workout and you'll be fine, however the example of food intake given was lacking protein in the first place IMO.

UnderAve · 01-21-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doner

every other day I..
Bench: 3 sets of 155lbs 6-8 reps
Military press: 40lbs dumbells 6-10 reps 3-sets
Shoulder shrugs: 3 sets 115lbs 15 reps
Squats: 155lbs 3 sets 15-20 reps
leg curls 40lbs 15 repz
Lat pulls: 150-170lbs 5-15 reps 3 sets
calf raises
leg extention: 70lbs 3 sets 12 reps
Tricep press down: 60lbs 3 sets 12 reps
Curls: 65 7x7x7 3 sets or 75 8 reps
running: 1.5 miles previous
Some agility exercises, woody bags
Stretching after running, then work out then stretch afterwards

OK, here is my opnion. You have a high caloric demanding job in splitting wood. Then you head to the gym and do this? No doubt you won't gain weight/muscle. Soem tend to err on the side of doing too much when trying to "bulk".

If you want to do a total body workout 3 times a week or whatever, then I would cut it to 4 exercises.

Bench, pullups or rows, squats and deadlift of the straight leg variety. If you wanted to mix it up this would be easy with this format. Drop the reps in half to about 8 and increase the weight to meet those reps. You could add one or two more core exericses if you wanted, but you won't get to your goal if you keep doing what you are IMO.

lifted · 01-21-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Lifted UA may be helpfull in your situation.
Going to talk to a friend who has some of your issues.
Your arms seem small relative to other bodyparts, tricep work may help your pressing strength.

Thanks Pegesus always had smaller arms in proportion to my big chest lats shoulders etc.

lifted · 01-21-2009, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Doner 100 grams of fat is 800 calories and ok but if you feel like more from healthy sources go ahead. The 150 grams of carbs is nowhere near enough to fuel the work you are doing, let alone gain weight. This is ony 600 calories of carbs. The total calories lifted spoke of is circa 2000. Would like to see you around double this, at least, while gaining weight. Forget proportions carb etc, a skinny kid doing hard work, needs to eat if he wants to gain weight.

did not know i hit that calorie mark so low i was thinking 3000 in my head. 4000 is a better sum.

doner · 01-21-2009, 10:36 PM

Thanks for your advice guys.

I've been trying to eat as much as I can, 5 meals a day. I've also been trying to make eggs, sausage and toast for breakfast. I added a meal after lunch at about 3:00-4:00. Each meal is bigger than the average serving. I've been drinking almost 1 and a half gallons of water a day and a 1/2 a gallon of milk. What kinds of nuts should I get?

I got a good work out today, I did the 4 exercises you've recommended with curls and triceps added. I had 14 inch biceps after todays workout, not sure if I was increased by the work out because I haven't measured in a long time. On bench I've been pushing it for that last rep, and I feel like its my weakness because of my 6'4 wing span, The guys I bench with are both shorter than average and when I extend up it probably reaches a foot higher, mathematically I'm doing a lot more work.

Lifted I'm surprised by your arm size because your builds much stouter than mine. Better change your work out a little or you'll look like a T-Rex.

UnderAve · 01-22-2009, 03:22 AM

Nuts- almonds, pecans, pistachio, sunflower. Also flaxseed. I don[t care what they say though, I prefer cashews, even if they are not the "best" for you.

lifted · 01-22-2009, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doner

Thanks for your advice guys.

I've been trying to eat as much as I can, 5 meals a day. I've also been trying to make eggs, sausage and toast for breakfast. I added a meal after lunch at about 3:00-4:00. Each meal is bigger than the average serving. I've been drinking almost 1 and a half gallons of water a day and a 1/2 a gallon of milk. What kinds of nuts should I get?

I got a good work out today, I did the 4 exercises you've recommended with curls and triceps added. I had 14 inch biceps after todays workout, not sure if I was increased by the work out because I haven't measured in a long time. On bench I've been pushing it for that last rep, and I feel like its my weakness because of my 6'4 wing span, The guys I bench with are both shorter than average and when I extend up it probably reaches a foot higher, mathematically I'm doing a lot more work.

Lifted I'm surprised by your arm size because your builds much stouter than mine. Better change your work out a little or you'll look like a T-Rex.

I have nice rounded biceps and can do bicep curls with a good amount of weight, but have negelcted the tri cep press, becuase i tend to grow these muscles faster. But i will get back into Friday.

The reason my arms are smaller is i had got a setrious illness from takin g an anitbiotic a few years back i went from a healthy 184lbs down to about 163. Im larged framed so that loked guant. My arms became soft and flappy because the muscles had catobolised a great deal, especially the triceps.

Pegasus · 01-23-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderAve

I agree with the above statement, to the point where people ignore valuable carbs from veges and fruits. Add simple carbs when needed, which is post workout and you'll be fine, however the example of food intake given was lacking protein in the first place IMO.

Yes we are on the same track. I think the original food intake was lacking food. However the recent post is on the right path imo.

Pegasus · 01-23-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderAve

OK, here is my opnion. You have a high caloric demanding job in splitting wood. Then you head to the gym and do this? No doubt you won't gain weight/muscle. Soem tend to err on the side of doing too much when trying to "bulk".

If you want to do a total body workout 3 times a week or whatever, then I would cut it to 4 exercises.

Bench, pullups or rows, squats and deadlift of the straight leg variety. If you wanted to mix it up this would be easy with this format. Drop the reps in half to about 8 and increase the weight to meet those reps. You could add one or two more core exericses if you wanted, but you won't get to your goal if you keep doing what you are IMO.

Doner, you see the common concept, with my post on workouts?
UA, lifted has some health problems that complicate his training.
How would you recomend he deal with these.

UnderAve · 01-23-2009, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifted

I love splitting wood especially oak wood. Wood splitting wiht an ax burns a bitch load of calories. Your present diet would not allow you to put on mass.
You need to eat more protein aim for about 165 grams per day that is about a gram per pound of weight. Then increase it by another 50 grams. A can of tuna for example is low in calories but gives you 28-30 grams of protein and its cheap.

You may want to add a little fat to your diet as well aim for a 100 grams of the good fats. Extra virgen olive oil, nutts seeds, peanut butter organic coconut oil.

Also add in abot 150 grams of good carbs whole grain breads, oats, brown rice is a good source of consintrated carbs.

And always get your 6-12 servings of raw fruits and vegetables. On a high protien diet you leach calcium and magnesium so you want to eat plenty of nuts and drink milk to prevent calcium leaching. Also high protein diets make it hard to poop that is why you want the whole grain carbs fruit and vegetables in there so you can succesfully shit yourself, ehehehehehehehe!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Lifted your shoulder pain might be from r-cuff issues. Do you do preventive cuff work? A physio visit might be in order. I prefer free weight to smith machine for most purposes.
You may find dumbells or even a bar allow you to press in a better grove.

Pegasus, wasn't sure if the health problems of Lifted you were talking about was the shoulder or the renal.

I would say, Lifted, if you have a goal of increasing bench press, and have shoulder problems, you definately need to be checked first, beyond the cuff it could be the labrum.

As for the renal issue and dietary concerns. I would probably try this approach if I was working with you. Assuming 1800 calories is enough for you, or some kind of number you want to stay around...I think 150g of protein would be about right for you and your issues, so 600 calories. I would go with about 125g of CHO, assessing you regularly to make sure that is enough energy (I don't know what you do for a living) and about 80g of fat.

BigHose · 01-23-2009, 03:08 AM

Doner,

With the amount of physical exercise you're getting, you should be taking in at least 200 grams of protein/day. There is no documented evidence of 2 gms/pound of lean bodyweight being too high.
I remember reading a study published in Muscle Media a few years back. Sedentary subjects were given .4 grms protein/pound of bodyweight and were in a catabolic state within a few days. They were then upped to .75 grms/pound of BW and maintained a positive nitrogen balance (used to measure protein waste). These subjects were then given light to moderate exercises daily, they dropped into a negative nitrogen balance within 2 days. The bottom line is FDA guidelines of .4 gms/lb are by far too low. Sedentary persons can get by at .75. Athletes need over 1 gram/lb daily. A good bit of this coming right after weight resistance training.

You should be taking in at least 15 calories per pound of BW just for maintenance. That's almost 2500 calories/day. If you consider eating Isocalorically-then 1/3 is protein, 1/3 is carbs, 1/3 is fat. That would equate to 830 calories (or 207 grams) protein, 830 calories (207 grams) carbs, and 830 calories (93 grams) fat. This is just for moderate work, you're working harder than moderate and you're looking to gain weight. You could add 25-35% on top of this. While you're working (spliting wood) you could add some fats to your diet. This will help slow down gastric emptying and stabilize blood glucose levels. If you carb up too much while working that hard, you could crash you glucose levels and feel tired. Eating alot of cereal can definitely spike your blood glucose causing a crash.

Unless you have a serious medical problem that would put you on a special diet, this would help you gain.
Post exercise (weight training) consume a shake with 40 grms whey, 60 grms high glycemic carbs such as dextrose, no fat. Consume within 30 minutes of lifting.
Change your lifting regimen to a 2 or 3 day split instead of repeating the same bodyparts each workout. Lift 4 times/week max.
Oh, by the way, cereal is crap. Eat whole oats instead.

doner · 01-23-2009, 12:22 PM

I see what your all saying and I will eat more of what you have recommended. I will buy some nuts next costco run. I've been making a lot of the dish my dad swears by: Eggs and beans on toast along with many other sources of protein. I'll try to eat more fruits and veges as little snacks throughout the day.

Pegasus · 01-24-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doner

I see what your all saying and I will eat more of what you have recommended. I will buy some nuts next costco run. I've been making a lot of the dish my dad swears by: Eggs and beans on toast along with many other sources of protein. I'll try to eat more fruits and veges as little snacks throughout the day.

Sounds like you are going well.
You have increased calories, protein etc and decreased number of exercises. You seem to be concentrating on major exercises.

Have you seen any increase in strength or b/w yet? It may be too soon.

Per Bighose's and others posts, you are at this point in excess of 3000 calories and 200 g of protein. I suggest your body get used to this increase for a short while. You should monitor your gains to see that you are gaining weight and strength. If not a further increase in diet may be warranted. On the other hand if you are stacking on large amounts of fat, (this is unlikely) some fine tuning may be necessary. A small amount of fat gain is acceptable, if you ar gaining muscle and strength. Btw, oats are a fine ceral for weight gain.

lifted · 01-24-2009, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderAve

Pegasus, wasn't sure if the health problems of Lifted you were talking about was the shoulder or the renal.

I would say, Lifted, if you have a goal of increasing bench press, and have shoulder problems, you definately need to be checked first, beyond the cuff it could be the labrum.

As for the renal issue and dietary concerns. I would probably try this approach if I was working with you. Assuming 1800 calories is enough for you, or some kind of number you want to stay around...I think 150g of protein would be about right for you and your issues, so 600 calories. I would go with about 125g of CHO, assessing you regularly to make sure that is enough energy (I don't know what you do for a living) and about 80g of fat.

That is pretty much what i do as far as diet goes. Im working with a doctor that i workout with sometimes. He says im doing the right thing in going to the gym and working out. He advises me to gain muscel mass at a slower rate though. Becuase catabolizing muscles can impair the kidneys.

I do have good new though the substance that caused the renal failure usually does not damage the kidneys but merely plugs them up. So now im thinking I have been concerned about nothing for a few years now. Im going to go to the doctor soon and have a chem panel done as soon as i can save up the 800$. No insurance i make to much $$.

Im not what you would call a desk job type. So currently I work in a resturaunt washing dishes and doing prep cook to some janitorial work. This helps to kerep the blood sugar under control. Diabtetics need to exercise more than normal people because excercise helps control blood sugar. A sedentary diabetic is a dead diabetic.

Pegasus · 01-24-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifted

That is pretty much what i do as far as diet goes. Im working with a doctor that i workout with sometimes. He says im doing the right thing in going to the gym and working out. He advises me to gain muscel mass at a slower rate though. Becuase catabolizing muscles can impair the kidneys.

I do have good new though the substance that caused the renal failure usually does not damage the kidneys but merely plugs them up. So now im thinking I have been concerned about nothing for a few years now. Im going to go to the doctor soon and have a chem panel done as soon as i can save up the 800$. No insurance i make to much $$.

Im not what you would call a desk job type. So currently I work in a resturaunt washing dishes and doing prep cook to some janitorial work. This helps to kerep the blood sugar under control. Diabtetics need to exercise more than normal people because excercise helps control blood sugar. A sedentary diabetic is a dead diabetic.

Sounds good. As I remember you do some aerobic training as well, good idea.Tell us how you are pogressing. As I remember you are looking to gain some muscle/strength and lose some fat. Once you have the shoulder checked, we can be of more assistance.
Good luck

lifted · 01-25-2009, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Sounds good. As I remember you do some aerobic training as well, good idea.Tell us how you are pogressing. As I remember you are looking to gain some muscle/strength and lose some fat. Once you have the shoulder checked, we can be of more assistance.
Good luck

It is not major shoulder pain just a nagging sting now and then when i do a bench press. so i have been doing decline to take the shoulders out of the equation.

Pegasus · 01-26-2009, 02:45 AM

Bighose thank you for your post.
I did have one ssue with it. Two grams + protein per pound of bodyweight is excessive. Did you mean 2grams per kilo? Even at 1 gram per pound Fred Hatfield says daily weight training plus sports training. Couldn't find anyone reputable who recomends much more than that.
Found 185,000,000 odd hits on the dangers of high protein diets, approx half a million specific to athletic populations. Dangers ran the gamut from poor sports performance through gout to cancer.

UnderAve · 01-26-2009, 04:09 AM

The kilo versus pound subject is often overlooked. I agree with using kilos, not only because it is right, but also because in our American way here of more is better, then be safer than sorry. The pound issue has arisen I think through bodybuilding magazines where the programs in there use, for some reason I would like to meet those dumb nutritionists, 1.5 to 2 grams per pound.

Pegasus · 01-26-2009, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderAve

The kilo versus pound subject is often overlooked. I agree with using kilos, not only because it is right, but also because in our American way here of more is better, then be safer than sorry. The pound issue has arisen I think through bodybuilding magazines where the programs in there use, for some reason I would like to meet those dumb nutritionists, 1.5 to 2 grams per pound.

I don't think it is nutritionists, who are looking at 2g plus per pound it is bodybuilders. Of course the bodybuilding mags push protein supplements.
For that matter I view anything from this source,(bodybuilders) with great caution.

BigHose · 01-26-2009, 04:48 AM

Alot of it has to do with the individual. Age, activity level, quality of food intake, water intake. 2 grams/pound of "Lean mass" is probably more accurate. It is for finite periods and not as a daily regimen. I suggest alot of water with this approach.

If you consider the above subject- 165 lbs with a high activity level. He will need at least 15 calories/pound of body weight. If he wants to gain lean mass he'll have to add 500 calories for a total of 3000/day (at least).
If he chooses a 40-30-30 plan...he'll consume 900 calories of protein. That's 225 grams. Which is 1.5 grams per pound of "lean mass" if he has about 15 lbs of bodyfat. Again, this is not everyday. I suggest the largest amount of protein consumption post workout (weights), that can come out to about 2 grams/day of lean mass. Again, NOT EVERY DAY.

I just found this as I was searching. It is close to what I just wrote.
Calorie Calculator - Daily Caloric Needs
Give it a try.

By the way Pegasus, I tried searching for protein maxes myself. I couldn't find anything on the amount of protein in a high protein diet. They mention high protein but not the gms/pound amounts. I think high protein diets are over 2 grams/pound Bodyweight.

Pegasus · 01-26-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHose

Alot of it has to do with the individual. Age, activity level, quality of food intake, water intake. 2 grams/pound of "Lean mass" is probably more accurate. It is for finite periods and not as a daily regimen. I suggest alot of water with this approach.

If you consider the above subject- 165 lbs with a high activity level. He will need at least 15 calories/pound of body weight. If he wants to gain lean mass he'll have to add 500 calories for a total of 3000/day (at least).
If he chooses a 40-30-30 plan...he'll consume 900 calories of protein. That's 225 grams. Which is 1.5 grams per pound of "lean mass" if he has about 15 lbs of bodyfat. Again, this is not everyday. I suggest the largest amount of protein consumption post workout (weights), that can come out to about 2 grams/day of lean mass. Again, NOT EVERY DAY.

I just found this as I was searching. It is close to what I just wrote.
Calorie Calculator - Daily Caloric Needs
Give it a try.

By the way Pegasus, I tried searching for protein maxes myself. I couldn't find anything on the amount of protein in a high protein diet. They mention high protein but not the gms/pound amounts. I think high protein diets are over 2 grams/pound Bodyweight.

As you say the subject is young and active and drinking a lot of water/milk.
He is probably over 3000 calories now and over 200g protein. Do I think this is a problem; no. In fact from my experience, he may have to go higher on the calories. In a recent post I asked him to stabilise his eating at this point till we can see what effect it has had. If he is not gaining, we will have to look at it. A post workout carb/protein drink is not a bad idea, both UA and I suggested something along the same lines.
High protein diet depends on who you talk to, but in general, over 1g per pound would be considered a high protein diet.
Do remember Arnold recomended 1g per pound plus a little extra if you are gaining weight. Some bodybuilding sources recomend even more, but I tend to regard them with great caution.

BigHose · 01-26-2009, 09:30 PM

This is true, and I do agree with the 1-1.25 gram/pound issue. I myself keep to about 1 gram/pound (200/day), I'm also 47 years old and not as active as I used to be. There are times when weightlifters need to increase that amount for that particular day if gym activity is highly productive, but not everyday. Even at that, excess protein will convert to glucose at the rate of 58% and be used for energy, just not as good as carbs.

This subject has a very high activity level and uses alot of fuel. I should have originally mentioned that the goal weight should be "lean mass" and not scale weight. I apologize for that and should've realized that I shouldn't think too hard that late at night.

He does need to eat heavy, especially moderate glycemic carbs which is why I told him to add oats and get rid of cereal. I do think Doner will fare well by increasing his caloric intake. He'll have to experiment with different routines until he feels comfortable.

Pegasus · 01-26-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHose

This is true, and I do agree with the 1-1.25 gram/pound issue. I myself keep to about 1 gram/pound (200/day), I'm also 47 years old and not as active as I used to be. There are times when weightlifters need to increase that amount for that particular day if gym activity is highly productive, but not everyday. Even at that, excess protein will convert to glucose at the rate of 58% and be used for energy, just not as good as carbs.

This subject has a very high activity level and uses alot of fuel. I should have originally mentioned that the goal weight should be "lean mass" and not scale weight. I apologize for that and should've realized that I shouldn't think too hard that late at night.

He does need to eat heavy, especially moderate glycemic carbs which is why I told him to add oats and get rid of cereal. I do think Doner will fare well by increasing his caloric intake. He'll have to experiment with different routines until he feels comfortable.

Yes the lean mass point is very relevant. He has had a large increase in calories, I warrant he is over 3000cal. So it is wise, to just see where he is going at this point, while he adapts to a higher food intake.
As to the routine, I think the concept of a small number of major exercises is sound. Of course, that leaves a lot of scope to experiment.

Pegasus · 02-01-2009, 11:04 AM

Lifted how are the triceps going?

Pegasus · 02-08-2009, 10:38 AM

Doner tells me he has gained 3lb which is on track.

Pegasus · 02-18-2009, 10:02 PM

A friend has injured his labrum, strange UA mentioned this sort of injury not long since.
Turns out his shoulders are hyper-mobile. Will have to work with him in regard to increasing his strength in the medium-long term. In the short term the physio has not really indicated the rehab process in any detail.
Would have thought swimming/rowing would have been part of the rehab process,
but only running so far.

Pegasus · 02-18-2009, 10:17 PM

Have a 15y old boy who has asked for advice re strngth/conditioning. He has gone to the gym and been given a program with mostly machines. As he wishes to be an athlete I am going to recomend he move to free weight in the near future. Now is a good time to establish good form in the major exercises.

JonPop · 02-18-2009, 10:25 PM

What type of athletics? Rugby? Need upper body strength. Soccor? Need supple muscles with good leg development. Chess? Need to be able to throw your opponent across the room. *Hee*

Pegasus · 02-18-2009, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPop

What type of athletics? Rugby? Need upper body strength. Soccor? Need supple muscles with good leg development. Chess? Need to be able to throw your opponent across the room. *Hee*

Actually the chess thing was close. He is doing Judo. When he turns 16y he will be fighting under 20y and also senior (16y and over). He only weighs 56K and the lightest senior catogory is under 60 Kilos. So he needs to gain some strength.

doner · 02-19-2009, 10:58 AM

I discontinued working out do to a virus that took my energy away for a couple weeks, I will start lifting again and hopefully notice some good fatigue due to the break.

Pegasus · 02-19-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doner

I discontinued working out do to a virus that took my energy away for a couple weeks, I will start lifting again and hopefully notice some good fatigue due to the break.

These things are sent to try us.
Still you made some progress and will in the future.
No more looking like the drovers dog for you.(All ribs and dick)

Pegasus · 02-22-2009, 12:30 AM

Ssa's thread on weight gain is instructive. In hindsight a pound a week was too much.
Hatfield states that a pound a week is the maximul rate you can expect new weight to be lean( with no drugs). However this would be for the bigger guys. SSa was a relatively small guy. Despite keeping an eye on his fat %, the lure of more size/strength led him in the wrong direction.

Pegasus · 02-28-2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

A friend has injured his labrum, strange UA mentioned this sort of injury not long since.
Turns out his shoulders are hyper-mobile. Will have to work with him in regard to increasing his strength in the medium-long term. In the short term the physio has not really indicated the rehab process in any detail.
Would have thought swimming/rowing would have been part of the rehab process,
but only running so far.

My friend J is progressing well with his injury and haas returned to almost full weight training. No contact training for a little though.
Physio said it was only his strength, that allowed him to do contact sport, with an inherited weakness in the shoulders.
Now J is only 17Y old ,but has several years weights behind him. This started in a very mild way, but in recent times he has been strength training. The physio says further strength increases will help protect him.
I remember years ago they discouraged weights for young people.