UnderAve

Per your message on my profile. I think 17 is well fine to be lifting hard. Depends on goals too. As an athlete, IMO, a good solid ability to move correctly is needed first, then add weights, regardless of age. If bodybuilding is needed, well I don't go there often, but it probably can be tweaked to fit the needs and processes of mass gains.

Pegasus

Yes j has a couple of years weights
. We recently moved him from the under 90kg weight class to the under 100 kg weight class. We changed his diet, cut down his cardio and changed his weight training to a hypertrophy style. He went from 90 kg to 100kg over 5 months or so which is a very good result since it is fairly lean.
He has good skills for someone his age, but he needs to be a lot stronger to fight the men in his class. We will work on that, in the mean time we will concentrate on the under 20 y class.

Pegasus

Until recently, my training was 2 or 3 weights sessions a week and whatever cardio I felt like. Would go to the pool at least once a week, surfski etc. My job was also physical to an extent, not the gutbusting stuff I did when younger, but still active. Didn't think the work counted fo anything, till I got an easier job. Then I found my fitness was geting poor. So now I have to be sure to do 3 cardio type sessions a week and I am happy enough. No interest in being an endurance ahlete, but can manage a jog without falling over at the corner.
Thought this might be relevant for other guys my age. As cu says, the body cares about what you have done for it lately.

Pegasus

Slow rep speed has had some popularity among body builders and recreational gym types for some time.

Obviously heavy weights and explosive movements, need progressive training to build up to. This is especially the case for mature trainers and people with previous injuries.
Slow rep speed allows the muscle to be worked hard with a lighter weight. This is especially usefull in rehab.
So what is the downside? Well for bodybuilders not much, they often train with a slow cadence anyway.
Athletes are a different matter. The slow movement has negative effects on the neuromuscular system," teaching" it to be slow. This may not lower strength, but it will lower explosiveness. So if you want to improve performance this is a method to use sparingly.
Recovery from injury and pure looks are a different matter.

Pegasus

In regard to weight gain, I had a couple of thoughts.
Firstly, the body defends what it is used to. So if you have gained some new weight, the longer you keep it the more the body will defend it. So if you wish to gain a large amount of weight, a series of steps may be necessry. You must get the body used to each weight increase, before going to the next increase.
For increases below 20lb, you may wish to do in one step. Increases of 5lb or less you may attempt to do completely lean, at half a pound or less per week. Larger gains may be attempteted at one lb per week mostly lean. The one lb per week is for a larger guy a smaller dude would be slower. Gains above 20lb shoud rarely be attempeted in one step. Lots of fat guys out there have tried.
Remember this thread is about drug free training. You have no doubt seen people gain faster with some help.

jayhawk11

Pegasus, do you do any pushups?

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CUSP82

Well if you're thinking pushups are a great exercise you're right! I've been lifting longer than some of the guys on here have been alive and pushups are always a great exercise. Do them. You can also make them a bit tougher by gettting a couple of large books and stack them up placing your hands on the books which moves your chest farther from the floor. Do them slow and complete and it will make a nice difference in your routine.

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W.M.P.

I just got back to the gym after a couple of weeks of nursing an injured shoulder and I gotta tell ya', developing a good foundation with calisthenics such as push-ups, chin-ups, pull-ups and dips (although my shoulders can't handle them any more) should be a must for anyone wishing to get and stay in good shape. These last couple of weeks, while waiting for my shoulder to heal up, I started looking back and came to the realization that I only started dealing with nagging injuries sometime after I started doing weights about 4 or 5yrs ago. I had always done tons of calisthenics, which would always keep my body in solid, fighting shape and I NEVER, EVER had ANY injuries or setbacks whatsoever while I stayed loyal to calisthenics. Once I moved back to NY after a couple of years of adventures, I joined a gym as a way of having something to do since I had stopped partying all together; I figured it'd be a nice avenue for meeting new friends and maybe getting to know one or two of the MANY hot ladies that go to pretty much every single gym in NY. Now don't get me wrong; I've kept going to the same gym ever since I 1st joined and I love it, but no matter what I do, I always end up coming back to good ole' calisthenics as a way of staying both in shape and injury free. Now, whatever weight-lifting I do, is an addition to a solid regimen of calisthenics and not the core of my workouts like it was for a while. Calisthenics 1st, weights 2nd and THAT'S where I stand, suckas.

Check out this dude from Brooklyn; the SOB is my age (35) and ALL he's EVER done is pure calisthenics. http://www.calisthenicskingz.net/

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Pegasus

Yes, not so much as I used to though. I have done many styles over the years. Currently the main one I use, is puting my hands on a swiss ball.
Still sometimes do Plyo style of various types.
WMP it is great that you have found an exercise style that suits you.
However, have you thought of prehab exercises and specific rotator cuff work?

W.M.P.

Absolutely. In fact, the very modality of push-ups I'm doing was prescribed to me by a Physical Therapist who treated some old injuries of mine about 2yrs ago. I'm working on light-weight isometrics for the three heads of the shoulder and also some dynamic push-pull moves to work all the little fibers that keep the rotator cuff from going to hell.

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Those who follow tao don't seek to arrive anywhere, so their journey is never over.

Lao Tzu

JonPop

Yep, when the rotator cuff goes to hell, not too much can be done to heal it. I know.

Mine is much improved as far as constant pain with movement, but still have to be very careful not to lift wrong. By lift wrong, I don't mean weights, I mean every day things.

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W.M.P.

And HOW!! I've even had to adapt in terms of how I shift and move in bed throughout the night; try move or prop yourself the wrong way and OUCH!

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Trying to understand is like straining to see through muddy water. Be still, and allow the mud to settle. Remain still, until it is time to act.

Those who follow tao don't seek to arrive anywhere, so their journey is never over.

Lao Tzu

JonPop

Yep and then you can never get your arm/shoulder comfortable again.

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Pegasus

My cuff injury stem from a childhood accdent, so I don't know what it is like not to have it.
The last decade or so the physio's have learnt how to treat it. So it is far better now than when I was young. Do exercises for it and can function normaly. Never been strong at presses, probably part of the reason.

UnderAve

I agree, thing is, if someone comes on a forum and asks how to get train better for sports, and meanwhile has been doing a similar slow type lifting pattern, I generally don't respond.

I like different variations of the pushups, but with time limits being a factor, I mostly go for the biggest bang for the buck, heavy bench and DB incline.


I feel that over time, general rotator cuff activities can be replaced with normal lifitng techniques such as DB presses, rows, and medball or kettle bell movements. Also, for optimimum shoulder health, don't forge the scapula/rhomboids, serratus anterior and stretching the shoulder into internal rotation

W.M.P.

Absolutely, UA! I actually did a really nice cluster of DB-press/Rows super-sets this past Thursday and it was AWESOME. Thing is, this time around I'm working on a slower, controlled way of lifting instead of explosiveness. I had been reading for a while about this whole 'explosiveness v.s. slow-&-controlled' debate and the thing is (as Peggy mentioned) that is really depends on your purpose. At this stage in my life (35), I'm way past becoming some kind of athlete and working on explosiveness is gonna yield me nothing other and very explosive injuries; all I wanna do is sculpt my body real good, while staying healthy and avoid injuries at all costs, so slow-&-controlled is the way to go for me from now on. The only kind of explosiveness I wanna constantly improve on is the one related to PE: explosive erections, explosive performance and ultra-explosive orgasms. So to that end, (apart from the obvious, which is a solid PE regimen) all I gotta do is make sure my cardio stays sharp, eat healthy goods and that's it.

P.S. What would you then recommend for working the scapula/rhomboids, serratus anterior and stretching the shoulder into internal rotation? I really wanna focus on taking the best care possible of my overall shoulder health, so any advice on this will be greatly appreciated.

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Trying to understand is like straining to see through muddy water. Be still, and allow the mud to settle. Remain still, until it is time to act.

Those who follow tao don't seek to arrive anywhere, so their journey is never over.

Lao Tzu

lifted

Me either, got nice shoulders but i have to be careful on the shoulder press machine i don't lift more than 100 pounds. On the Smith machine no more than 70 pounds. Dumbells 20 max.

Currently im working on strengthenng rear delts by doing an exercise i learned on the pec deck. I hit the anterior portion with the tri-cep press.

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Pegasus

Yes Wmp, this is the standad way to look at it. I think lifted is in the same boat.
I have a different view, but it is based on an unproven theory.

W.M.P.

I must clarify that by "slow-&-controlled" I mean (say on DB press) 1 second push (which is considered explosive) and 2 seconds lowering the weight. This tempo is still what would be considered "explosive" by some trainers, but guys like Robert Dos Remedios are proponents of a type of "explosive" pace that's more geared towards elite athletes who apparently do benefit from grabbing them weights and going at it at a "Boom! Boom! Boom!" kind of pace; just exploding with as much speed and force on every single rep.

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Trying to understand is like straining to see through muddy water. Be still, and allow the mud to settle. Remain still, until it is time to act.

Those who follow tao don't seek to arrive anywhere, so their journey is never over.

Lao Tzu

Pegasus

Yes, your cadence is standard bodybuilding, or a little faster.
Slow would be 4 plus second push.
Explosive can be powercleans, powersnatches, jumpsquats or throw bench, to give some examples. You can also do standard exercises quicker depending on your goals.
This is pretty standard in sports with a power component. I wouldn't say you have to be elite to do it. In fact I still do some.

UnderAve

Don't sell yourself short, I am 35 too. I wouldn't think of training any other way, of though, I still love playing sports. Just need to heed the signs of needing rest.


I will get back to you on this, promise. With 2 kids, one being sick, not much time right now. Hopefully tomorrow.

UnderAve

OK, very general stuff here that you can impose into your current routine.

For rhomboids, I feel two arm pulls are best, such as the seated row. Now when you pull to activate the lats and posterior shoulder, as you reach the mid phase of the pull, squeeze the scaula together for at least 3 seconds (think someone pouring cold water down the middle of your back). Keep the shoulders down.

FOr the serratus, when doing pushups, add a little "plus" to it.
YouTube - Push Up Plus (Serratus Activation) - Nutrex Solutions

Here is my favorite IR stretch, the sleeper stretch
GoodSleeper3.JPG (image)

Pegasus

Went to get a heart rate monitor you know; training heart rate zones. Anyway they couldn't get one to work on me, because my ribcage is a funny shape. Anyone else have this problem?
UA and I have talked about strength as you age. It is an interesting subject.
Of course if you take someone untrained and train them their strength should incease.
In this way, a sedentary person, might become stronger at 60years, than they have ever been before. Conversely a highly trained individua,l might retain a lot of strength into age. However that will usually be well off peak levels.
Well I am 49y and have been trying to maintain or increase strength. It has become increaseingly difficult. Recovery has been a major issue. Still have a few ideas to try, before I just do yoga instead.
I remember when I was in my 20's, the medical people were allways trying to get everyone to stop doing contact sports and weights. They claimed they were not antisports; people should do yoga and swimming instead. Great way to turn active people into couch potato's.

Pegasus

Right, my strength is at 90%, despite a few issues here and there.
So, as I am being dragged into age, kicking and screaming , I am going to do a strength cycle. This has required some thought, as to how to go about it. Think I have it right, but I could go down like Icarus; in which case I will go down fighting.

Pegasus

My training has been successfull, in that I have done a nominal personal best(pb). This was 3 reps on 160kg in the full squat, a 168kg single equivilent. My previous best was 165 kg single.
I think this says something,given that I am 49 years and lifetime roid free.
Of course roid monsters everywhere will snigger at me. To them roid free training is half arsed. Well I am tired of this, F##k them. If they had the gumption ,,to do it roid free they would have; but they don't and they didn't.
What I did, I did, not some needle.

Pegasus

Anyone out there 40 years plus still deadlift? I have done my best deadlift for many years recently, but still off peak values. Have found it difficult to build up, injuries have been a problem. Still I am geting there, perhaps it just needs persistance.

UnderAve

It is just like PE IMO, adding miniscule gains/additions each workout.

Pegasus

Ah UA just the man.
Attempts at linear increases in DL have led to injury.
Have used "Western" periodisation(Bompa et al).
Currently using conjugated peroiodisation,heavily modified from Lou Simmons "Westide" style. This has required carefull handling. Strain from griping the bar, led to stressing the ligaments where the forearm attaches the elbow. Took ages to heal. Have to conclude you are right in a sense though. My theory is to Dl enough to strengthen the ligs, but use wave loadings and periodisation to allow for extended time, ligs need to strengthen.
You must have clients my age that Dl ,what is there experience?

Pegasus

On thread ideal male body, was some talk about how hard abs are to get. It became apparent that bodyfat is only part of the problem. To show ab muscle, you have to have ab muscle. This requires developing these muscles. I did Judo as a teenager and developed abs, which I have pretty much had since. This involved high volume and specific training. In the last decade, I have used low volume and high load, this has worked well and takes little time.
Perhaps someone else would like to get into specifics, but I have found so long as I work hard on abs, most things work. UA what is your experience with your clients.
Was surprised UA that you have no clients over 40y DL in any serious way, at least at this time. Have come to the view, that I am going along ok and that a prolonged break ,in an exercise like Dl ,is going to be hard to overcome at 49y. So 165kg(360lb) for a triple, isn't quite to the level I want, it does show improvement. So I am on the right track.

lifted

Today in the 4 pack popped through when i was in the shower at the gym. I ran my hand down my abdomen and thier they were lumpy! The recent water gain hid my abs for a few days. But now the fluid is gone so i can feel them real good. My abs are incredibly hard, they are the hardeest part on my body next to my big huge erections.

sheding the blubber is only one part of it, you have to do those crunches.

My workouts in the past 8 weeks is mostly consisting of dumbells, i do my dumbell workouts on the swiss ball to engage more of the stableizing muscles. This makes working out with dumbells a challenge. You have to keep your body on the ball and not fall off. I do shoulder press, chess press, pec flies, rolling squats, bicep curls and dumbell walking. I warm up for this by doing some yoga shit first. Cat stretch to plank to bridge.

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Pegasus

I also have done work on a swiss ball. I generally do this as part of a conditioning cycle.
Congrats on the abs!!! So you seem to bear out my theory.

Pegasus

PS.
Do not underestimate, the effect, that stableising your body has on your midsection.

lifted

I do my entire dumbbell routine on the ball. It also really makes you breathe hard, so i think their is a cardio effect to this as well. Cardio, strength, and core all at the same time. You hit more muscle when you do ab work on the ball. People forget that ab work done correctly can save you a lot of $$$$$$ when it comes to not getting back pain or sciatica.

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UnderAve

With all due respect, as I feel we have a candid relationship here, I feel abs is 100% dietary concern, 75% cardio concern and 25% "movement" concern-just a little joke on percentages btw-. Showing abs is all based on body fat IMO, lesss than 10%, maybe 12% at very top range. Our abs are always "on". I work mainly stability in the ab region. Planks and side bridges, woodchoopers, etc. Very little, but some crunching and ab wheel. With female clients it is easier IMO as they tend to have less mid section fat (more butt and hips though). In turn though, I am less of a "bodybuilding" mindset and more functional philosophy too.

In regards to fat loss and caloric burning, I would much rather spend time working multijoint movements to burn more calories than simple crunchs in a supine position.

I don't have many clients over 40 currently, just two, well, now 3 as of tomorrow morning. They all deadlift to a point as described in the IM. depending on the client and time frame, just will be a little different focus or variation. All of my youth and athletic cleints deadlift.

Pegasus

UA good to see you chime in on this.
I have a different view on this ab thing ,as stated above. Of course if you have a thick layer of fat ,you will not see your abs. However if you are reasonable lean and you do not see abs ,it may be that the muscles are underdeveloped. Of course you are correct, that this is more a bodybuilding(looks) concern than a functional one. However, one may lean to the argument, that the visual lack of muscle, denotes a functional weakness. Sort of a greek, form follows function argument.
Your idea re dl, seems to be that it is very secondary to squat? If you regard Dl as of equal value, your clients should all be dl more than they squat. This is ok and quite standard. I had thought to get some insight, into my personal situation, re dl through your experience, which is considerable. Am bring my strength cycle to a close, so the point is moot. Thought my experiences, may also have been of use to you .