Pegasus - Page 4

W.M.P. · 07-04-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

... if you have a thick layer of fat ,you will not see your abs. However if you are reasonable lean and you do not see abs ,it may be that the muscles are underdeveloped.

At least in my personal experience, this has happened to be the case. Sometimes the elusive six-pack does need A LOT of ab-work in order to surface regardless of how well you eat.

UnderAve · 07-05-2009, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

UA good to see you chime in on this.
I have a different view on this ab thing ,as stated above. Of course if you have a thick layer of fat ,you will not see your abs. However if you are reasonable lean and you do not see abs ,it may be that the muscles are underdeveloped. Of course you are correct, that this is more a bodybuilding(looks) concern than a functional one. However, one may lean to the argument, that the visual lack of muscle, denotes a functional weakness. Sort of a greek, form follows function argument.
Your idea re dl, seems to be that it is very secondary to squat? If you regard Dl as of equal value, your clients should all be dl more than they squat. This is ok and quite standard. I had thought to get some insight, into my personal situation, re dl through your experience, which is considerable. Am bring my strength cycle to a close, so the point is moot. Thought my experiences, may also have been of use to you .

No doubt, I take your opinion in the highest regard. I just have never seen this to be the case where the 6pack isn't shown when the fat is at the right percent.

The DL is important, and probably not secondary to the squat in anyway, but depends on the person, situation and history of that person. my clients with poor knee history can squat, I jsut don't want them to blow a disk. I would much rather them have knees that are sore (haha) than a hurt back too. But we still deadlift them, just not the same as I wold an athlete.

Pegasus · 07-05-2009, 09:13 AM

I have seen no abs on people with low bf, who then gained abs without reducing bf. Distance runners often have low bf and no abs. Stabilty work also effects the abs, as I said in an earlier post. So you are working the abs, probably pretty solidly, even if you are not doing a lot of crunches. So your clients are developing ab muscle as well as dieting and doing cardio. Anyhow something for you to think on.

Pegasus · 07-05-2009, 10:04 AM

I did a lot of deadlifts when I was young, then I got some injuries from contact sport and the physio's talked me out of them.
Later I stoped weights alltogether for 8 or so years. When I restarted weights I was in my early 40's. I decided to forget everything I had been told and find my own way. Building up my weights, I started to get minor injuries with squats and strength exercises. Starting again, I decided longer conditioning times were required. I trained with submax weights for a time, then hit another strength cycle without injuries. Encouraged ,after a year or 2 I decided to include dl in my training. This was ok while the weight was moderate, however on increasing the weight ,the ligaments in my hands and forearms played up. While I could train and work around this, it took a long time to heal. I trained dl only with moderate weight for some time after. A couple of years ago I decided to carefully build up dl. I did run into problems with even slow incriments, however over time ,I did manage to do a 170kg single. This was about a year ago, then recently I did 3 reps on 165kg. Now 170kg (370lb,) is I suppose ok, for a 49year old, but I weigh a solid 100kg. Now back in the day I dl 185kg. Of course you are thinking; well he was 20 something and you are right. Now think from my view. I did 185kg at 75 or 76 kg bodyweight, now I can only manage 170kg or 172.5kg(single equilevent) at 100kg bodyweight.
Back in the day I squated 155kg at 75kg bodyweight now I squat 3 on 160kg. If my dl had kept pace with my squat I would be doing 195kg. So I think I am capable of more.
I have found a way forward. I was just reaching out to see if there was a better way. UA, with your wide experience, I had thought you might have something to teach me. Have you had clients 40 something, 50 something dl 350lb plus? If so are they lifetime roid free? If so , their experience might help me. If not, then perhaps my eaperience can help others.

UnderAve · 07-05-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

I have seen no abs on people with low bf, who then gained abs without reducing bf. Distance runners often have low bf and no abs. Stabilty work also effects the abs, as I said in an earlier post. So you are working the abs, probably pretty solidly, even if you are not doing a lot of crunches. So your clients are developing ab muscle as well as dieting and doing cardio. Anyhow something for you to think on.

Haha, yeah probably. This is just something I never really thought about or have run across where a client or athelte had a problem with.

10 · 07-05-2009, 04:30 PM

I would have to totally alter my diet, eat strictly clean stuff, no junk food at all, no alcohol or otherwise to POSSIBLY see my 6 pack. Then, when you add in the fact that I'm closing in on 40 really quick here, I see my chances fading away. The older you get, the harder it is to achieve. Still though, I'm a believer in if you want it bad enough, you'll do what you can to achieve it.

UnderAve · 07-06-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10

I would have to totally alter my diet, eat strictly clean stuff, no junk food at all, no alcohol or otherwise to POSSIBLY see my 6 pack. Then, when you add in the fact that I'm closing in on 40 really quick here, I see my chances fading away. The older you get, the harder it is to achieve. Still though, I'm a believer in if you want it bad enough, you'll do what you can to achieve it.

You are correct on the last part. Would be amazed at how good some 40+ years can look even after starting out way behind the perverbial 8-ball.

Pegasus · 07-06-2009, 07:48 AM

Well I am 49y and still have abs. Have to say though ,that was never the hard part for me. Took me a long time to gain muscle. Now I am happy with the body, but would like to trade in my head.
My concept re abs, is diet and cardio to get lean and ab work to develop the muscle.
UA you tick all the boxes, which is why your clients don't have a problem.
On the other hand, distance runners are sometimes lean with no ab muscle.
10 you should be inspired by lifited success, he is not a teenager. I note that he did direct and stability work to achieve this, dispite having problems in the past.

10 · 07-06-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Well I am 49y and still have abs. Have to say though ,that was never the hard part for me. Took me a long time to gain muscle. Now I am happy with the body, but would like to trade in my head.
My concept re abs, is diet and cardio to get lean and ab work to develop the muscle.
UA you tick all the boxes, which is why your clients don't have a problem.
On the other hand, distance runners are sometimes lean with no ab muscle.
10 you should be inspired by lifited success, he is not a teenager. I note that he did direct and stability work to achieve this, dispite having problems in the past.

I have a stalkier build than most. I'm not chunky or huge by any means but I'm "solid" in my mid section. I do crunches and cardio, though probably not nearly enough to see 6 pack abs. My biggest downfall would be my diet. I do enjoy some junk food, I do enjoy alcohol (in moderation mind you) and I do enjoy eating. If I want a six pack, I'd have to completely alter my diet and eat only clean burning fuel.

UnderAve · 07-06-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Well I am 49y and still have abs. Have to say though ,that was never the hard part for me. Took me a long time to gain muscle. Now I am happy with the body, but would like to trade in my head.
My concept re abs, is diet and cardio to get lean and ab work to develop the muscle.
UA you tick all the boxes, which is why your clients don't have a problem.
On the other hand, distance runners are sometimes lean with no ab muscle.
10 you should be inspired by lifited success, he is not a teenager. I note that he did direct and stability work to achieve this, dispite having problems in the past.

I am sure that Australian diet is nothing to write home about since they took over the US as the most obese nation, however, I still would contend that the Australian government has less of a hand in the food administration than the American government does. It is so hard to eat well here. The options at the food store are limited, often filled with salt and excess water and expensive.

Pegasus · 07-07-2009, 07:58 AM

Yes, Australia and the US, run neck and neck for the most obese country on earth.
Don't think our stores would be any better than yours. As I try to eat low salt and low saturated fat I can tell you it is not easy. However, keeping my bodyfat down is not as hard for me as for some others. Of course it has got a little harder post 40years.
I had hopes of others writing here about diet and exercise to get abs. My experience has not been difficult enough, in the diet for leaness area, to produce insight.

lifted · 07-08-2009, 06:19 AM

Im stronger now at 45 then when i was was in my late teens and early twenties. My thighs are getting huge!

Has anyone ever tried doing squats with dumbells?

Pegasus · 07-08-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifted

Im stronger now at 45 then when i was was in my late teens and early twenties. My thighs are getting huge!

Has anyone ever tried doing squats with dumbells?

Your training seems to be going very well lifted.
Yes dumbell squats are a popular exercise. I have done them the odd time. I know that UA likes them, as they do not load the spine as much.

10 · 07-08-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Your training seems to be going very well lifted.
Yes dumbell squats are a popular exercise. I have done them the odd time. I know that UA likes them, as they do not load the spine as much.

I've done these before as well. They're a bitch!

lifted · 07-11-2009, 03:58 AM

Oh yes dumbell squats are a bitch but they do take pressure of the spine. I feel it in the abs as well.

10 · 07-11-2009, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifted

Oh yes dumbell squats are a bitch but they do take pressure of the spine. I feel it in the abs as well.

I'll stick with squats.

Pegasus · 07-11-2009, 08:08 PM

Did partial squats ,through 1ft range at 210kg(460lb) today. This was actually harder on the core than the legs. People tend to forget, the core workout you get, from this type of exercise. I would think lifted, that pound for pound, dumbell work would produce more core effect.

lifted · 07-12-2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Did partial squats ,through 1ft range at 210kg(460lb) today. This was actually harder on the core than the legs. People tend to forget, the core workout you get, from this type of exercise. I would think lifted, that pound for pound, dumbell work would produce more core effect.

Yeah probably, and you don't have the full range of motion with dumbell squats as with regualr BB squats. But, i never could go ass to the grass anyway like i see some do. I have big calvs that kind limits dipping that far anyway.

Pegasus · 07-12-2009, 09:24 AM

Wow you must have huge calves, as I remember, it was your arms, you had the most trouble with. Would think ,if you took the db to the floor ,that is more range of motion than most get and enough for your purpose. Of course db limit the weight, so you win on the swings with the core effect etc and lose on the roundabouts.
I do db squats, swiss ball work(similar to yours) and a lot of r-cuff work during my conditioning cycle. Later I do lunges, front and back squats, stiff leg dl, incline and flat bench, dips, overhead presses and direct arm, lat and calf work similar to bodybuilding. During strength cycle I do back squats, dl , flat bench. rows and not much else. If I am doing "western periodisation", I follow this with some power work, jump squats , power cleans, power or throw bench etc.

lifted · 07-13-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Wow you must have huge calves, as I remember, it was your arms, you had the most trouble with. Would think ,if you took the db to the floor ,that is more range of motion than most get and enough for your purpose. Of course db limit the weight, so you win on the swings with the core effect etc and lose on the roundabouts.
I do db squats, swiss ball work(similar to yours) and a lot of r-cuff work during my conditioning cycle. Later I do lunges, front and back squats, stiff leg dl, incline and flat bench, dips, overhead presses and direct arm, lat and calf work similar to bodybuilding. During strength cycle I do back squats, dl , flat bench. rows and not much else. If I am doing "western periodisation", I follow this with some power work, jump squats , power cleans, power or throw bench etc.

My biceps have gotten a bit bigger as well. And i do jump squats now and then. Or i go to the toe when doing squats most of the time and then bounce it. I can do this with 200 BB, 300 Smith machine.

lifted · 07-13-2009, 07:56 PM

Hmm, nervous about body shift in the last six months. Althouhg i wear the same size pants and at times they seem to fir looser i managed to gain about 8 lbs. I know most of this is muscle. Mostly in the thighs and butt. However, it is making me nervous i still want to lose that much weight 8 lbs of body fat w/o losing muscle i worked so hard at gaining.

Pegesus and others do you ave any suggestions. I just started taking keto7dhea 50 mg started today for serious fat loss. taken it before off and on i hope this does the trick w/o losing muscle.

I am also thinking of buying an ipod to record music so iwont be so boring doing cardio. I am going to take the low impact brisk walking approach, reason, harder cardio seems to burn off muscle as well as fat.

Pegasus · 07-14-2009, 07:57 AM

I am not an expert in the fat loss field. However I will say, if you want to lose fat without losing muscle take some time over it. Rapid weight loss usually includes lots of muscle loss.
I never had any time for low intensity cardio when I was young, but I have changed my mind. I think it is very usefull for weight loss and there could be something to what you say, in regards to intense cardio burning muscle. Endurance athletes even do some low intensity work ,along with more intense stuff.

Pegasus · 07-14-2009, 01:58 PM

Did 3 on 170kg DL tonight, my last strength session for awhile. While I was in the gym, a bodybuilder I spoke to, tells me that high intensity cardio, burns more muscle when you are down lean. The effect on muscle is not noticible when you are heavier.
Now this is from "powerfull Paul" not Pegasus, so make what you will.

UnderAve · 07-14-2009, 04:28 PM

If you are maintaining a high protein diet, alng with strength training in concert with cardio (while I prefer intervals once or twice a week, long slow cardio can be used here as well), the effect of muscle loss is negated or very much minimized.

Hunter et al
Resistance Training Conserves Fat-free Mass and Resting Energy Expenditure Following Weight Loss.
Obesity (Silver Spring). 2008

Bryner et al.
Effects of resistance vs. aerobic training combined with an 800 calorie liquid diet on lean body mass and resting metabolic rate.
J Am Coll Nutr. 1999 Apr;18(2):115-21.

I would disagree with the bodybuilder you spoke to Pegasus, he wold more than likely lose more muscle with a 45 minute treadmil session than a 10 minute 50 meter sprint workout, and possibly burn more fat in the long run with the latter.

Pegasus · 07-14-2009, 10:47 PM

I treat anything from bodybuilding with lots of salt.

lifted · 07-15-2009, 02:15 AM

I think i will do the low impact cardio. My dumbell workout on the Swiss Ball has cardio built in believe me i huff and puff. So this is like HIIT in a way. I do this two days a week. work my ass off at the resturaunt 5 days per week doing the heavy lifting etc.
i think i will add in a couple of low intesity sessions per week.

UnderAve · 07-15-2009, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifted

I think i will do the low impact cardio. My dumbell workout on the Swiss Ball has cardio built in believe me i huff and puff. So this is like HIIT in a way. I do this two days a week. work my ass off at the resturaunt 5 days per week doing the heavy lifting etc.
i think i will add in a couple of low intesity sessions per week.

I see no problem with that, I wold view it as a recovery workout if you will.

lifted · 07-15-2009, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderAve

I see no problem with that, I wold view it as a recovery workout if you will.

I also do a few yoga stretches to warm up for my ball work. This could take about 20 minutes. The ball workout is about 30 to 40 minutes.

Pegasus · 07-15-2009, 12:34 PM

Lifted re the jump squats, what you are doing would be more speed squats.
The difference is that in jump squats you use a lighter weight and get significant lift and speed. So rarely over 30% of your 1 rep max. Speed squats are done up to about 65% of 1 rep max and are as you describe, a fast squat done with little liftoff. The difference, is that speed squats are more to the strength end of power and jump squats more to the speed.
May do a work out similar to your for a few weeks, now I have come out of strength cycle. It is good ,you have found something that meets your needs and works for you.

lifted · 07-16-2009, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Lifted re the jump squats, what you are doing would be more speed squats.
The difference is that in jump squats you use a lighter weight and get significant lift and speed. So rarely over 30% of your 1 rep max. Speed squats are done up to about 65% of 1 rep max and are as you describe, a fast squat done with little liftoff. The difference, is that speed squats are more to the strength end of power and jump squats more to the speed.
May do a work out similar to your for a few weeks, now I have come out of strength cycle. It is good ,you have found something that meets your needs and works for you.

Thursday when i go back to the gym in going back to the machines to test strength. To see if i gotten stronger by doing DB workouts. And also for the reason that it will be around 105 degrees Thursday. The weights are upstairs where is is hot as hell. the machines are down stairs and cooler. May take a dip in the pool afterwards if i get Friday off.

Pegasus · 07-16-2009, 02:53 PM

Sounds good, it is winter and quite pleasant here.

lifted · 07-19-2009, 04:26 AM

After returning to the machines after about 10 weeks of not using the machines they seem rather linear and boring.

Pegasus · 07-19-2009, 08:49 AM

Ahhh a convert to free weights. Machines have their place. You may decide that for you, that is the corner of the basement.

Pegasus · 07-22-2009, 09:11 AM

Looking back at the strength cycle I just completed. I note that I gained a couple of % in strength which is ok at 49 years.
Interestingly I lost 3kg during this cycle from102.5 kg to 99.5kg, most of this was fat loss, but I did lose a little muscle off my arms and shoulders. Cardio also improved a little , off a low base. I did not diet though I always try to eat well. Still swam once a week and did the odd session on the crosstrainer, for 20 min odd at decent intensity. I think the low intensity aerobic effect, of the work I have been doing, is defenitily better health wise than being sedentry. The question remains in my mind. Could I make up the cardio effect, of hours of low intensity work with a couple of 20 min intensity workouts? Of course you burn more calories over the many hours of work.

Pegasus · 08-22-2009, 01:49 AM

Welll my energy level has been low, but I have continued training. I have stayed lean but lost a little muscle. Since the downturn work has been depressing, that might be having an effect on my energy levels. Hope it is not the blood pressure medication.
Or it could be that returning to physical work at 49 takes a bit of adjustment. When I was telling a guy at work I thought the physical work had caused weight loss ,he said yes the old guy found that too. It took me awhile to work out who he meant, as the guy he was talking about is 10 years younger than me!
Anyway I continue to work at it. Interesting thing, some of the younger girls think I look better down lighter, even though my recent weight loss ,say the last 2kg has been mostly muscle. But I am 97kg now and want to be 100kg odd and my girlfriend would be happy at that also. So I am trying to eat more and build up my weights.