UnderAve

Sorry, can't for some reason access PM or profiles. Just wanted to see how your session in the gym went with the front squats.

Pegasus

Took it easy and went well. Will need to increase shoulder flexibilty a little for good form. Over time will work up to 60% or 70% of back squat. I know higher % are possible but I am not an olympic lifter.
Have thought to do some speed style exercises later on, however am dubious about powercleans, snatch or throw bench while my shoulders are sore. Perhaps jump squats at 30%?

UnderAve

Sent you a PM, take your time with the progression, trust me, it will pay off. Do you play any sports?

I would suggest the loaded jump squats with dumbells/kettlebells, not a barbell across the back.

Pegasus

Yes I have noticed as I have grown older it pays to take more time with the progression, particularly in exercises I haven't done in awhile. Learnt the hard way not to progress too fast.
Have done dumbell and bar jump squats at 30 to 40% and speed squats at 50 to 65%( bar). Why do you prefer db?

Pegasus

PS what range of motion do you prefer for weighted jumps.

Pegasus

Was thinking about the corelation between back and front squats. A person who does mainly back squats, will rarely exceed 75% of his back squat weight on front squats.
Unless he spends some time specialising in front squats that is. Of course, olympic lifters and some others usually front squat far more than they back squat. In this case higher % are normal.
The usefullness of this is, if you have back squater, who has not done a lot of front squats, you can expect him to get to 70% without becomeing a front squat specialist.
Conversely a front squater, can exceed his front squat on back squats, without becoming a back squat specialist. Of course in both cases, they would have to progress in a safe manner on the " new" lift, but you have an expection of where they are going.

UnderAve

I prefer DB's due to unloaded spine. The highest I go on bar jump squats, on the not so often occasion I do them is 95 pounds, with a 405 or so 1RM on the back squat.

UnderAve

For continuous jump squats (countermovement) I use about 45 to 60 degrees knee flexion for quick return upwards.

For Pause jumps (non countermovement) I go to 90 and below.

Pegasus

So less than 20%, what about db loading? I take it you are concentrating on geting speed and lift, so this is speed-strength, do you do speed squats for strength-speed?

JonPop

Hey Pegasus. it's already 2009 down under. Happy New Year. Does the beer taste any different now that it's a year older? *snicker*

__________________
I've got a Tiger by the Tail

Pegasus

Well it is summer here, so the cold beer goes down smooth. Going to walk down to the beach soon for a swim, think the beer will taste even better there.
Happy New year JP and all betterman members.

JonPop

Yeah, rub it in. All the guys here from the east coast and upper states that are still ass deep in snow are going to love hearing you say that. *Hee*

__________________
I've got a Tiger by the Tail

Pegasus

Well JP I was 24 years old the first time I saw snow, so you win on the swings and lose on the roundabouts.
Thought some info on supplements, from the highly respected Australian Institute of Sport, might be of interest. This body is consertive re supplements.
In group A supplements that definitly work in the right situation to improve sports performance include.

Multi vitamines, electrolytes, iron, calcium, etc etc for general health.
Caffeine
Creatine
Gycerol
Bi-carb and citrate.

Small list isn't it.

Group B (worth research) include
Colostrum
beta- alanine
hmb
glucosamine

Group d- not to be used because they can cause a positive drug test. Includes Tribilus and other hormone bosters.

Interestingly they caution about long term diets where protien exceeds 2gram per kilo or say 1g per pound. For the most part they recomend good amounts of carbs.

UnderAve

I see no other application for jump squats than for power application. I think that for DB loading, the total would drop to close to 10% total, so for my example, two 20 to 30 pound DB's.


Interesting, I would agree pretty much as well. The supplement business has exploded in terms of worthless, dangerous and unverifyed-poor studied products.

I would agree on the protein-carb aspect as well for the group they are exploring, athletes. For someone enduring fat loss, I think protein needs to be upped and carbs cycled.

Problem here in the US is sugar and HFCS.

Pegasus

Interesting countermovement jumps would be easier to do with lower degrees of flexion.

I have a theory UA that may get me rubished but here goes. Even in trained populations, strength diminishes from late 40's. The cause of this is muscle mass loss, which in turn is caused by nerve death. The loss is preferentialy fast twichfibers.
Now my theroy is that the loss is worsened by the way middleaged people train. They tend to avoid heavy low rep work and explosive movements. Thoughts?

UnderAve

As per our PM, yes, I want more speed. As with my clients,, I don't do much strength speed, or as I said high load power. Way I figure it, no matter the load, I want them going as hard as possible under control, if that makes sense.

I don' think so IMO, the key with countermovement is speed, and the less flexion there is, the faster you can rebound and work the stretch shortening. With non counter, you can really think about getting into a deep squat and exploding out.

I would agree. Don't think the muscle and strength loss is as great at times as others think, but the variables are numerous in maintenance. I have been working with a now 90 year old for about 2 or 3 years now once a month. He was really active when I first met him, and we greatly improved his ability to sit up out of a chair and his golf game soared. About a year nito it, he had some health problems that have taken us off course and have greatly dimished his abilities, I think he just likes me to come out as company now, but regardless, I still give him things to do and he seems to make mini steps now.

Pegasus

Hm, the low load makes sense, if yur clients don't need high load power. In fact may have more anti ageing effect.
When I tried conuntermoveent jumps, I did it wrong. By trying to get deep I stuffed the stretch reflex/ speed. It makes sense; going to do some low load countermovement jumps, in periodised fashion. Should b able to do these in addition to my current training; they shouldn't stuff recovery too much. Hope they will have an antiageing effect, as per previous post.

UnderAve

Sorry, I maybe got your post and question.statement confused. IMO, the squat jumps them selves wouldn't have anymore antiaging effect than any other exercise. But it may allow one to maintain power further into age. I thought you were talking more along the lines of after 40 years old, everyone is in pearl with muscle mass and strnegth.

I will say I have a 47 year old female client, for about 4 years now . She came to me from another trainer who mainly did bodybuilding type stuff, poorly at that. I added more explosive and core routines to her cycles and she has seen a dramatic improvement in lifting ability, everyday life stuff, and body weight control (I think due tot he fact we are able to open the play book so to say)

Pegasus

Yes I did mean after 40 strength/power/musclemass can be hard. Per my theory, this is worsened by the normal training method of middle aged people, ie avoiding heavy low rep and power wiork.
+
IMO maintaining power further into age. is an anti aging effect and one to be sought. So is strength training and I don't mean light pumpy movements.

When I mention this theory, I am told of untrained or poorly trained 50,60,70 year olds, that have got a lot stronger when propererly trained. This is great, power to them and their coaches. However going from untrained to trained should do this. Or John at the gym is 60y and benching 400lb. Of course this former powerlifter used to bench 500lb+ and no longer squats. Taking someone wth a strong training background past 50y without strength loss is another matter. I have seen it done; going from natural to roids, but this is not what I mean.
Anyway, I can see countermovement jumps at low load, having value, within this theory.

Pegasus

Have been asked about weight gain. My thinking on this is a little different to some. I think weight gain should be roid (and similar drug) free. I believe it should be basicly lean. I believe it should increase strength/ sports performance.

NATURAL WEIGHT GAIN
Well most people, when they want to gain weight, are told to eat more. This works for a lot of people and they can stop reading now.
For the rest of us these people and their lack of any understanding, are very annoying and not very helpfull.
So before we start again and ignore those people, we must look at what they say, one last time. Many people with low apetite think they are eating more than they are. It may take years and lot of dicipline to build up the ability to eat. Many people are fussy and eat a limited range of foods. Over time, they should expand the range of foods they will eat. Some people miss meals, or eat too infrequently, again they must develop dicipline.
Ok so you eat 4,5,6 times a day. You drink a gallon of milk a day, eat a huge amount etc. Still thin? I was. First thing to do, bitchslap the people, who keep telling you all you ned to do is eat more. Felt good didn't it? Very destressing.
This is the first thing you need to do; become less nervy, less stressed more relaxed.
This might be all some people need; more in part 2 for those who need it.

Pegasus

Ok we looked at eating. In part 1 we mentioned a relaxed state of mind, of course this includes enough sleep.
Next we can look at our work. Yes work. Some jobs are mentaly stressfull, strategy should be put in place to deal with this. If as I was, you are doing heavy physical labour, this can be counterproductive to weght gain. Your body is using all it's resources to get through the day. No, just eating more may not help. Your body is using energy, to deal with this food and if you are already eating a great deal it may not be capable of dealing with more.
A less demanding job is one answer. Another is to gain weight in less demanding periods and on holiday, then maintain through demanding periods.

Next additional training. I say additional, in that it is not helping you gain weight. So any sort of endurance training tends to be a problem. Long runs ,squash games,soccer etc. Hang on a bit, didn't I say that sports performance should be improved? Yes I did, if you play soccer you should consult your coach re ideal bodyweight. If he says go bigger, then you should periodise your training. The off season is a good time for gains in bodyweight/strength/power, during this time endurance training is limited.
As the season approaches endurance training is steped up again. Books such as Tudor Bompa's "Theory and Methodology of Training" ( an oldy) deal with periodisation in detail. The question now comes up, how much weight do you want to gain? If it is a large amount,it may be that you can't fit it into a short space of time. If this is the case you may need several periods through the year. Of course very large amounts of weight gain, may require many years. It may even take decades. Of course drug use is the quick way. The natural road is longer. If you choose it, as I have, then you have to be carefull who you listen to. The advice of drug users is of little use and is often counterproductive. Let them walk their path, we must go a different way.

Pegasus

OK, here is Dr Squats,( Fred Hatfield Phd) natural Hgh release.
1. Exercise less than 1 hr at high intensity. Prefer a warm gym.
2. Avoid extreame pain or stress, but not extreame effort.
3. Avoid a" bellyfull" of carbs before training or bed, as this will inhbit gh release.
4.Avoid geting stale on a training routine.
5.Use arginine/ornithine before training/bed.
6 Don't overeat before bed.
7. Don't have high blood sugar before training.
8. Get rid of excess bodyfat.
9. Sauna.
10. Sleep, including naps through the day.
Hope this may help someone.

doner

Hey pegasus, Im 18, almost 19: hello canada! I'm trying to gain strength with still having muscle endurance. I'm 6'2 and weigh between 160 and 165, trying to gain 10 lbs.
My Diet
breakfast: cereal (honey bunches of oats)
Lunch: two tuna fish and lettuce sandwiches or chili
Dinner: salad with dressing and an 120z serving of meat usual with potato
Midnight snack: more cereal

My work is splitting wood currently so its constant exercise, During the summer I'm a carpenters apprentice and thats a fair amount of exercise aswell.

I take a two hour nap and get 6 hours of sleep every night.

No excess body fat, I usually have a 6 or 8 pack depending on what work I'm doing. I can dunk a basketball, run a 5 minute mile, do 15-20 pull ups and bench my weight about 5 times.

__________________
Current 1/4/08
Bpel- 8.75
Eg- 6.75

Goal
Bpel- 9
Eg- evening it out

Estimated time till goal
3 months

Pegasus

Ok so the amount you want to gain is reasonable. You are fit and lean.
You have the problem mentioned above, where you are burning a lot of energy in your work. You are also young and that burns it up also. Given this you are not eating very much. You may try eating more often, eg mid-morn and /or mid afternoon. You could try increasing the amount per meal or drinking a pint of milk after each meal. Try to avoid unnecessary energy output. Eat before and after training, this does not need to be a huge amount but you need energy there when the body needs it. No fullcream milk right before training btw.

UnderAve

Don't have time to discuss right now, but will say two words- MORE PROTEIN.

Pegasus

Doner I try not to get into specifics of training too much. I take it you read the posts on weight gain above. In general terms, training for weight gain(drug free) should not be the 20 sets a bodypart 6day a week type thing. Days a week training and especially sets should be limited. The big muscle groups are where your effort should be concentrated. Also big exercises are better for weight gain than small ones. So squats rather than leg extensions, deadlifts rather than curls. These exercises are also good for general strength and fairly functional. This can be usefull in the workplace. Also I believe the first few years of weights are better done through a full range of motion, so that strength is developed through a full range of motion.
Anyway post the training you are doing now. So for weights, sets ,reps, weght, days.
Also any other training you are doing.

doner

every other day I..
Bench: 3 sets of 155lbs 6-8 reps
Military press: 40lbs dumbells 6-10 reps 3-sets
Shoulder shrugs: 3 sets 115lbs 15 reps
Squats: 155lbs 3 sets 15-20 reps
leg curls 40lbs 15 repz
Lat pulls: 150-170lbs 5-15 reps 3 sets
calf raises
leg extention: 70lbs 3 sets 12 reps
Tricep press down: 60lbs 3 sets 12 reps
Curls: 65 7x7x7 3 sets or 75 8 reps
running: 1.5 miles previous
Some agility exercises, woody bags
Stretching after running, then work out then stretch afterwards

__________________
Current 1/4/08
Bpel- 8.75
Eg- 6.75

Goal
Bpel- 9
Eg- evening it out

Estimated time till goal
3 months

Pegasus

Ok first, a run before training might warm you up. Or it may tire your legs, if you go too hard and it is burning energy you need for training/weght gain. Though 1.5 miles shouldn't do much harm. Second, for weight gain every second day is probably too often. Every third day might work better.
Leg extensions are not a weight gain exercise.
While I have used 15-20 rep squats, I suggest at this time you increase the weight and decrease the reps. As squats are a big exercise I suggest they go first and you must put your fullest energy into them. Have you done deadlifts ? They are another big exercise and work siomewhat similar muscles. You could do this every second workout instead of squats, but not in addition to, as this will be too much stress on your lower back. If you do deadlifts you will not need shrugs. You have the strength to do chins full range, imo they are a better exercise than lat pulldowns for you. When you can do 12(full range) add weight. Ok so squat,deadlift.chins,bench are your core exercises and must have your full energy. Curls etc are an extra.
So if you were tired, went to the gym and did a warm up then.
Squat 3 by 8
bench 3 by 8
chins 3 by faiure
You would still have done somthing worthwhile. If you did curls and legextensions all night it would be less productive. Ok if you want to and you have the energy 8 exercises aren't too many. So long as your full effort ,goes into these core exercises. As a guide, you should be able to work your squats up 10lb to 15 lb every workout till you arrive at 3 by 8 on 205lb odd full range. Deadlifts should start at at 155lb and go up 15lb a workout til 215lb. Start doing 1 warmup set on a light weight before these big exercises. Form is very important on these exercises and must not be allowed to get sloppy.

doner

Thanks pegasus,
I haven't tried deadlifts but I have friends who have so I'll probably lift with them, I'll focus on the main muscle groups then. I'll update you after a few workouts.

__________________
Current 1/4/08
Bpel- 8.75
Eg- 6.75

Goal
Bpel- 9
Eg- evening it out

Estimated time till goal
3 months

Pegasus

Great, remember strength gains etc, as well as bodyweight gains. Also any problems, how you are going with eating an increased amount and so on.

UnderAve

doner, hopefully I can commetn tomorrow as it is late, er, early here and I need some sleep. I think Pegasus is pretty much hitting the nail on the head with what I have read so far with my blurry sleepy vision.

lifted

Pegasus is a genious.

Im trying to lift hevier, I am gainng strength in the legs doing squats and or leg preses. Even though i have a good well develpod chest i seem to be weak in the bench press. I was able to only lift 165lbs 5 reps.

Did this on the smith machine today:
135 pounds 8 reps.
145 lbs 8 reps.
155 lbs 7 reps.
165 lbs 5 reps and not able to come down to the the one inch mark above my chest. I seem to get an ache in the left anterior shoulder.
Now i fi were to do a decline bench press i can go heavier. I would sy this is about 80% of my maximum. My goal is to bench press 200lbs w/o a spotter 3-6 times.

my stats:

Weight 190
Shoulders 54"
Chest 47"
Waist 34"
Thighs 22"
arms 13"

Diet:
Low starch because im diabetic with renal insuficientcy. So more than 180 grams of protien per day may just leach out my urine and cause more damage. My doctor says that i can not abosolutely let myself catabolise. Muscle waisting would clog the kidneys. Not really looking to gain mass just definition and get down to 8% bodyfat and show a six pack more. Im currently around 13% body fat.

I eat around 1800 calories per day drink lots of water and no artificial crap goes into my body. I take between 4-6 grams of AAKG, Green tea, ginkgo. Green tea and Ginkgo increase creatinine clearance so they are good for the kidneys. I avoid creatine supplements.

__________________
Big in the britches!

lifted

I love splitting wood especially oak wood. Wood splitting wiht an ax burns a bitch load of calories. Your present diet would not allow you to put on mass.
You need to eat more protein aim for about 165 grams per day that is about a gram per pound of weight. Then increase it by another 50 grams. A can of tuna for example is low in calories but gives you 28-30 grams of protein and its cheap.


You may want to add a little fat to your diet as well aim for a 100 grams of the good fats. Extra virgen olive oil, nutts seeds, peanut butter organic coconut oil.

Also add in abot 150 grams of good carbs whole grain breads, oats, brown rice is a good source of consintrated carbs.

And always get your 6-12 servings of raw fruits and vegetables. On a high protien diet you leach calcium and magnesium so you want to eat plenty of nuts and drink milk to prevent calcium leaching. Also high protein diets make it hard to poop that is why you want the whole grain carbs fruit and vegetables in there so you can succesfully shit yourself, ehehehehehehehe!

__________________
Big in the britches!

Pegasus

Lifted your shoulder pain might be from r-cuff issues. Do you do preventive cuff work? A physio visit might be in order. I prefer free weight to smith machine for most purposes.
You may find dumbells or even a bar allow you to press in a better grove.

Pegasus

Doner 100 grams of fat is 800 calories and ok but if you feel like more from healthy sources go ahead. The 150 grams of carbs is nowhere near enough to fuel the work you are doing, let alone gain weight. This is ony 600 calories of carbs. The total calories lifted spoke of is circa 2000. Would like to see you around double this, at least, while gaining weight. Forget proportions carb etc, a skinny kid doing hard work, needs to eat if he wants to gain weight.