Pegasus

Thought we could use this. Members can say what training they are doing and what effect it has on PE.
Well I am going swimming, will write when I return.

bozoballz

Good idea Pegasus... here's my current routine as taken from:Tunica, Bloodflow and Gains

__________________
So it goes like it goes, like the river flows. And time, it rolls right on.
And maybe what's good gets a little bit better, and maybe what's bad gets gone.

jayhawk11

That's quite a diet Bozo. It's really a good thing that you're able to stick with it. It's also interesting too that your body reacts to junk like that. Mine does too.

A diet with plenty of fiber keeps your body clean, and I guarantee it can help you gain. Nuts are good too. I recommend lightly salted cashews.

__________________
10/1/08 BPEL 5.75in EG 4in
Now BPEL 6.5in EG 4.7in

My other progress log
http://www.pegym.com/forums/progress...gress-log.html

UnderAve

Good stuff Bozo. I don't knwo if I can accuratly place my exericses to PE gains as I have only been doing PE since Nov. But I have been doing the same 12 exericses weekly with progressing intensity since then. First the supps.

8G fish oil daily
Ultra Man Vit on PE days
1G L-arg on PE days
50mg zinc on PE
B complex on PE
300mg MACA on PE
L-lysine on PE
400mg green tea extract everyday.

Once I am done with the others, the only supps I will continue are the green tea, fish oil, maca and multi.

I have, this week, attempted to reduce my coffee intake in half by drinking green tea in the morning and a cup of coffee in the early afternoon. I hope to wean off coffee almost completely in about two months (save two days a week)

During the week I do squats heavy and bench heavy (335+ on squats, 225+ on bench). I do deadlifts semi heavy, for me anyhow, about 240 to 275 for reps. The other exericses are for 8 to 12 reps, pullups, pulldowns, calf rases, lunges, DB bench, mb rotations, DB overhead presses, SLDL and DB rows.

I weigh 215 and am about 6 two. I hope to get down to 195 or so and think this would help my PE progress.

I also plan my meals but am not currently very stringent on what I eat, as I feel planning is half the battle. Once the momma is done nursing, I can add protein powders and such back into our diets.

I also do not put much thought into sceintific studies, which is one reason I like message boards, assuming those here are truthful, the anecdotal evidence of what is going on in the trenches is more powerful than a strictly admissed study.

Pegasus

RECOMENDATION by AMA
The recomendation is indeed 30 min 5 day a week of moderate exercise.Examples of moderate exercise are walking(3.5mph), gardening, dancing.

OR

3days by 20 min of vigorous exercise.


IN Addition.

twice a week strength training.

Also some balance training for older adults.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Pegasus; Yesterday at 07:45 AM.


Pegasus

Pegasus

Today, 01:07 AM #29 (permalink)
BigHose
Bronze Member





Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: South Jersey shore
Posts: 59 I will have to disagree with high amounts of cardio training and state that anaerobic work is more beneficial. Here is some good info Charles Poliquin - Six reasons why aerobic work is counterproductive

I have a lot of respect for Charles Poliquin. I have read some of his books and completed some of his routines. The man has the paper to prove his worth as well.

I've been a gymrat for 14 years and prefer anaerobic work for cardiovascular health over long, high intensity, aerobic work. Weight lifting is the pinnicle of health and fitness. We have 70+ year olds in our gym that lift weight which proves you don't have to try to set records to lift weights for health reasons.
The AMA is doctor and pharmeceutical oriented. They probably still push the "food pyramid" as healthy eating.

For cardio work that is anaerobic, try sprinting, HIIT routine, or speed jump rope with proper rest intervals between sets. It's okay to hit the treadmill or run a couple of miles, but this should not be the basis of your routine.
__________________
Ultimate goal- 9"x6", one fraction at a time!

Pegasus

Yes interval training is very trendy just now. Of course it has been around for many decades.
Um you do know, that when bouts of anaerobic work are put together in sets like this,(Poliquin) it is a form of aerobic training.
So in effect it is a form of cardio/aerobic training.
It does have advantages, I forget why interval training fell out of favour. It has been trendy before and never went away.

Pegasus

Ahh Bozo that vit D sees a lot.
I am not an expert,so could you reassure me.

bozoballz

Vitamin D.

It has been shown most people are Vit D deficient. I addition those of us living up north receive even less. Studies have shown people can take 5000-10,000IU without any side effects. It can take up to 10 months taking doses this high to get the levels back up.

The standard of 400IU/day set by the gov't is low. Too low. It's outdated from everything I've read.

I'll post more info later... time to go to work. :)

__________________
So it goes like it goes, like the river flows. And time, it rolls right on.
And maybe what's good gets a little bit better, and maybe what's bad gets gone.

W.M.P.

I think it's all a matter of finding a balance between anaerobic and aerobic. I personally have found, after a solid 20yrs of putting my body through the works, that I have better strength-training workouts when I make sure to do some cardio for a good 20 to 30mins, 3 times per week. It happens to me over and over; every time I slack on getting some cardio in, both my weight-lifting and my sexual stamina go down a couple of notches. Of course, you'll never find me doing massive amounts of cardio as the basis for my workouts...unless I'm in a situation like I'm now, where my left shoulder is fucked up so I gotta do some extra cardio so I don't loose my freaking mind from doing nothing but shoulder-rehab work with 6lb and 8lb dumbells.

When it comes to a strength-training system that also gives a you a serious cardio workout, my favorite is Charles Staley's EDT system. When I'm doing EDT as my main program while doing some cardio 3 x week during off days, my cardio levels go up the roof and I find that my bedroom performance is the best barometer for that. I notice a huge difference both in my EQ and also the amount of time that I can pound my girl like a frantic animal while keeping my breathing at a slow pace.

The only thing that (at least for me) tops ANY other form of exercise in terms of cardio (as reflected in bedroom performance) is swimming. Every time I get a chance to get back in the pool, it only takes a little over a week before my heart & lungs are in such shape that not only can I keep a level-10 erection even way past orgasm, but I can also go at Mach-3 speed on my girl for however long she wants, while barely breaking a sweat and my heart & lungs not working much harder than if I was simply walking down the street. If I had consistent access to a pool, swimming would be without a doubt the core of my fitness regimen; I'd go to the gym to combine some body-weight exercises with some dumbbell work and I'd be all set.

__________________
Trying to understand is like straining to see through muddy water. Be still, and allow the mud to settle. Remain still, until it is time to act.

Those who follow tao don't seek to arrive anywhere, so their journey is never over.

Lao Tzu

W.M.P.

True. Living here in Nu Yawk is tough to get enough Vitamin D once the Fall comes. I actually tried the tanning salon thing last year for about a month and it definitely made a difference in how I felt. Right now I'm broke as dog, but as soon as I start working again I'm gonna get a membership. My girl has been keeping a mild tan this way for years and her blood tests always show she has optimum Vitamin D levels...........meanwhile I look as pale as a block of mozzarella cheese.

__________________
Trying to understand is like straining to see through muddy water. Be still, and allow the mud to settle. Remain still, until it is time to act.

Those who follow tao don't seek to arrive anywhere, so their journey is never over.

Lao Tzu

JonPop

Well...As long as somebody doesn't try and shred you...

__________________
I've got a Tiger by the Tail

W.M.P.

I know....better stay away from Gino's Pizza, before I end up melted in a puddle of tomato sauce and spices over a large wheat crust.

__________________
Trying to understand is like straining to see through muddy water. Be still, and allow the mud to settle. Remain still, until it is time to act.

Those who follow tao don't seek to arrive anywhere, so their journey is never over.

Lao Tzu

jayhawk11

Man...pizza is the worst. When I eat pizza, it throws my entire body out of whack. I get bloated, my body almost completely shuts off.

__________________
10/1/08 BPEL 5.75in EG 4in
Now BPEL 6.5in EG 4.7in

My other progress log
http://www.pegym.com/forums/progress...gress-log.html

BigHose

A couple of slices of pizza about an hour or two before pounding the weights gives you a terrific pump!

__________________
Ultimate goal- 9"x6", one fraction at a time!

Pegasus

Well vit D is not such an issue here in Queensland.
I live close to the beach WMP, some days my daughter and I walk down for a swim.
Sometmes I drag the surfski or bodyboard down. There is also a free public pool called the lagoon, which has been built on the beach front, so that you look out from the pool across the ocean. It is my daughters favourite spot, she swims there year round, even though it is unheated. There is also a heated pool which costs $3 to go. Tonight I am going there for stroke improvement class, $6 with XXXX Of course the serious swimmers get trained there by OOO OOOO who turns out Olympic medalists. But I just plod away once or a couple of times a week.
Pizza for pump, sounds great, is there 1 you endorse BH.

bozoballz

I thought of going tanning during the winter months but supplementing has worked out just as well. Low levels of Vit D contribute to SAD (seasonal affective disorder) and depression in general. The standard 400IU is enough to prevent you from getting Rickets but not enough to be healthy. A Dr. at the Boston School of Medicine recommends up to 2000IU/day. Since I battle depression I've been taking higher amounts in winter. 80-90% of our Vit D comes from the sun... so if you are not getting out in the sun much you are probably low in Vit D.

__________________
So it goes like it goes, like the river flows. And time, it rolls right on.
And maybe what's good gets a little bit better, and maybe what's bad gets gone.

Pegasus

BH likes Poliquin, WMP likes Charles Staley. I like Hatfield and Bompa amongst others.
Anyone like to add some more?

from UA
"I also do not put much thought into sceintific studies, which is one reason I like message boards, assuming those here are truthful, the anecdotal evidence of what is going on in the trenches is more powerful than a strictly admissed study. "

This is interesting UA given your background. Would you like to expand on this?

Is there anyone you lookto as a majour influnce training wise?

UnderAve

Why is this site always going down?

Anyways, aahh yes, well I had a couple rum and cokes te night I wrote that, so it sounds a little off from what I actually feel, it just came out wrong. What I mean is so many put so much into science studies when in reality each side of a study can be debated. There are some great ones out there on training, problem is nowadays, is "who do you trust?" Anyone can payoff for results to be published in a certain direction. Therefore, it is my feeling to lean toward what is happening in the trenches moreso than what a study says. Read studies, decide if it is good (double blind, etc) and use the info to make ones own conclusion in the gym. Otherwsie I would rather hear what others are doing for results anecdotally.



Well, I started on Vern Gambetta. And to be honest, it hasn't changed much. For a couple years though, say 2005 to 2007 I veered off and listened to people who were basicaly spewing the same stuff a different way. I just feel Vern has not swayed in his thoughts and is true to them now as he was 30 years ago. There are lots of good authors out there who write great things, I just wonder if they are getting results as they say they are. A second person I would mention is Mike Boyle. He is such a great communicator it is scary. And his results are proven as well. Christian Thibideau is an interesting character as well.

As for the ones you mention, Poliguin gives decent info and Staley is interesting. I don't know much about Hatfield though. Bompa, I have his books and like his thoughts, but have heard he was more of a lab rat than active on the field.

Pegasus

Actually Bompa trained numerous World and Olympic champs before becoming a lab rat
I have similar feelings to you re studies,you have to watch who you trust.
Then again, I feel that even more so, about what people tell me anecdotally.
I have learned to be less trusting than I once was. I have found bodybuilding sources particularly problematic.

Pegasus

Print Email
Thought this might interest. Was researching interval training and why it fell out of favour before, this was more informative than the more hiostorical articles.

Steady State vs. Interval Training: Summing Up Part 1
I previously examined The Metabolic Effects to Short-term High-intensity Interval Training.

Summing up briefly, it showed quite clearly that, at least in relatively untrained individuals, a short-term (2-6 week) program of high-intensity interval training (workouts typically done three times per week) can generate similar adaptations to longer duration training.

In that post, I finished by asking the following questions:

Summing up: There’s no doubt (and I haven’t intended to suggest otherwise) that high intensity interval training can have benefits. It’s time effective and may induce similar performance adaptations to longer duration traditional cardio. With regards endurance athletes, it’s clear that even short periods of low volume interval training can have rather large benefits for performance.

But with most of the benefits seeming to occur with only a handful of sessions per week (2-3 is the norm) and with benefits appearing to end fairly quickly (3-6 weeks), we might ask what a trainee should do when either

They need to train more frequently than that
They are looking at their training over a period longer than a few weeks. That is, if interval training stops providing benefits after 3-6 weeks, what should a trainee do for the remaining 46-49 weeks out of the year?
There is also the issue of how intervals integrate with training when OTHER TYPES OF TRAINING (e.g. weight training) are being done. That is, what happens if someone is training their legs heavily in the weight room twice/week. How realistic is it to then add high intensity interval training to that workload?

As well, what happens when someone (e.g. an athlete or obsessive exerciser) is trying to train daily? What happens then in terms of how they structure their week? If you take much of the current guru-speak (e.g. intervals are the only beneficial way to train) at face value, you end up developing a training week that no human being can survive.

And that’s where I want to start today since this will let me start to put everything together to close out this particular blog post series.

To my knowledge, pretty much every study done comparing interval training to steady state (in terms of fat loss or metabolic adaptation) has done it in isolation. The subjects were neither dieting nor doing any other form of training.

Such as weight training.

As well, the frequencies were strictly controlled in those studies. In the performance studies, typically endurance athletes replaced a small portion of their total volume (15%) with intervals. Generally 6 sessions over 3 weeks (or 2 per week) were done. In the paper I reviewed Friday, the subjects did three interval sessions per week and nothing else. Again, that’s true of most of these studies. Oh yeah, the subjects weren’t dieting, of course.

Even in the now famous Tabata study, where the subjects were doing the four minute workout four days per week (the fifth day was a partial Tabata protocol with some steady state training), that’s all they were doing. They weren’t lifting, they weren’t doing any other kind of training, just going through hell on the bike.

So why are all the gurus assuming, uncritically, that interval training can simply be ‘tacked-on’ to a heavy weight training workout without problems? Or added to a calorie restricted diet without any problems? Why are trainees assuming the same thing?

Because, in addition to the current focus on interval training as apparently the ONLY way to train or lose fat, there has been a renewed interest in full body workouts (often of the metabolic type of training with high reps and short rests). I’ll come back to that and the diet issue in more detail on Wednesday, I want to stay focused here.

So we have people who are trying to hit legs in the weight room three times per week. Sometimes its heavy, sometimes it’s metabolic stuff, sometimes it’s a combination of the two. And then add intervals to that training load. Now, if they are smart and/or lucky, they end up ONLY training three times per week. At least that way their legs are only getting hammered (and I mean totally hammered) on those three days.

And, you know…whatever. I guess if someone only has three hours to train per week and can’t fit in any more training, they might as well blow themselves out every day and just go hard. Of course, this still doesn’t address what happens when intervals stop working at the 6 week mark (as they very well might) but, again, whatever.

If you have three sessions of an hour per week and that’s all you can train, you might as well make it as time efficient as possible. Do metabolic weight room stuff for 25 minutes, intervals for 20 minutes and that leaves 15 for warm-ups and cool-downs. As long as the other four days per week are completely off, this might be workable. For a while anyhow.

And you know, if the various ‘HIIT plus metabolic weight training for the win’ gurus would make the above very clear, I wouldn’t have much of a problem with what’s being said. I still think it will eventually burn people out and that periodizing the type of training done will work better but that’s an argument nobody wins so I’m not going to bother with it.

I would also note that nobody can say if the adaptation benefits to HIIT continues past 6 weeks in beginners. It’s clear that it more or less stops after three weeks in trained folks (even in the much talked about Tabata study, the major benefits happened by week 3 with only small further benefits at week 6).

But recall my question from above, what happens when athletes (or dieters), want to train more than three days per week. Because they usually do. Can they simply do more and more and more intervals (or complexes or whatever)? The answer, as you might guess, is no.

And that’s where I’m seeing real problems. I’m seeing people, having been convinced by spurious logic (bordering on outright bullshit) that ONLY intervals are productive training or useful for fat loss, that magically steady state can MAKE YOU FATTER, trying to do nothing but interval training.

Added to three full body workouts per week.

While restricting both calories and carbs.

This is retarded. This is beyond retarded.

Tangent time that is sure to piss some people off: Wanna know what I think about ‘adrenal fatigue’? I think that in 99% of cases, it’s simply overtraining being brought on by people following the idiotic training advice being currently given. If these people would simply stop training in such a retarded fashion, the current fad of ‘adrenal fatigue’ would simply go away in most cases. But that’s another blog for another day.

Anyhow, recall from above that high level endurance athletes typically only add interval training twice per week, replacing some of their weekly volume. And they aren’t usually weight training. The rest of their volume, about 85% of it is low intensity aerobic work.

As I discussed in Pole Vault Your Way to a Hot Body, 400 meter runners (who aren’t doing true ‘interval’ training anyhow) only train maximally twice per week. The rest is extensive tempo (essentially low intensity work).

Most elite powerlifters only train legs hard twice per week (and many train heavily once per week and lighter the other), the ones who train more frequently use much lower intensities (and often take drugs to support the training). And, yes, Olympic lifters usually squat daily, but a lot of it is low intensity and they take years to build up to that level (and of course, use a lot of drugs to support that level of training).

This is fairly common, most high performance athletes don’t even try to do more than two high intensity workouts per week for the legs (I’m focusing on the legs here since most interval modes use the lower body and this is the muscle group that is most commonly overtrained).

These are highly trained athletes who are usually eating plenty to support their training.

Even contest dieting bodybuilders, who are usually trotted out as the ones to emulate for fat loss typically move to a split routine with primarily low intensity cardio for maximal fat loss. Yes, some are now incorporating interval sessions such as my stubborn fat protocols but, the majority of their training is low intensity. And that’s with a reduction in leg training frequency (one of my primary guinea pigs for the Stubborn Fat Protocol 2.0 cut his leg training back to only once per week to avoid overtraining his legs due to the intensity of the SFP2.0). And the legs often still fall apart after an endless contest diet.

Yet somehow the general public has gotten the idea that they can train legs heavy in the weight room 2-3 times/week (because full body workouts are in vogue) AND add intervals multiple times per week to that load (because ONLY interval training is productive apparently). While restricting calories and carbs. And this is being promoted in various media (books, e-books, blogs, etc) as the thing to do.

Did I mention that this was completely idiotic?

Again, don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-intervals. Clearly they are time efficient and productive in many ways. But they are also a high intensity training session for the legs and have to be counted as such. And they have to be considered within the context of the complete program including any other types of training (whether for aesthetics or performance) and diet.

And this is what is not being done for the most part. People are simply taking isolated data points about diet or training and assuming that they can be stuck together to provide maximal results. And this is getting them into trouble.

Share and Enjoy:

Pegasus

I remember Neil Adams (world champ and twice olympic silver medialist judo) told me that he incorparated intervals into his training. He would do this in a periodised fashion after laying a groundwork of steady cardio work. His whole training was adjusted for each cycle depending on what was to be achieved. This was early 80's from memory.

Intervals seem to have started circa 1920's and become popular after ww2. They fell out of favour and now are trendy again.
I most certainly think they have a place in training. But it is easy to get carried away when one thinks they have found "the" answer.

Pegasus

Have been doing physical work. I suppose this is low intensity cardio, have lost bodyfat without dieting. Don't know if my cardio fitness has improved though, might run a test.
Feel my fitness fell when I did less physical work. Was replacing this, with a couple of cardio sessions.
Al ,you did low intensity cardio any comments?